The root cause
 

of our enviromental troubles.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...pop_growth.jpg

All current ideas are stopgaps. The end is near.

Pete

Imho the gap between 1000 AD and 2025 is too narrow; the gap between 1000 and 2012 would be interesting.

So we're all doomed. Why then are we making ourselves so miserable? "Don't eat that, don't smoke, don't drink too much, don't burn coal, don't burn oil".

Whatever you enjoy, nanny says stop it.

Club baby seals while smoking a radiated cigarette on a 2 stroke snowmobile? :D

There's 2 solutions. The Chinese solution, which is cruel and not entirely successful, and space.

Here's a closer look at more recent growth:

http://www.globalfinancialdata.com/D...Population.png

But only through 2000.

Pete

There are only two kinds of people. Those who see only two options and those who see a myriad of possibilities. :D

Regards,

D-Ray

When one looks at the vast amount of empty arable and/or livable land in this country and the vast agricultural surpluses we have, I have little real concern about overpopulation.

But isn't it a real concern that as the more populous countries develop their economic base, they will want to consume at the level at which we have consumed. Do you think that the planet can support that?

Regards,

D-Ray

I guess it depends if you're referring to consumption of foodstuffs or cheap plastic consumer crap. The former doesn't really bother me for the aforementioned reasons. Think about it. Less than 2% of our population is involved in agriculture and lots of fallow lands, yet we have massive surpluses in nearly all food stuffs.

We as in the US, and it might be a selfish bright spot in a world of hurt.

Food aside, there are other issues d mentioned, pollution, overfishing, and running out of natural resourses overall.

Pete

There are certainly issues of overfishing and pollution, many of which are fixable. The Chesapeake Bay's crab and striped bass fisheries are both great examples of what good management can do (while the Chesapeake also remains an example of what pollution can do).

As for natural resources, I think we're nowhere near running out of critical resources. A few years back we thought we were running low on natural gas. Now, not so much. Same goes for oil, and we're nowhere close to running out of coal.

Perhaps I got off track. I was thinking of consumption in terms of the waste and pollution that is associated with it. For example, if the rest of the world consumed energy at the level that we do, the level of pollution that would result is difficult to fathom - not to mention the pollution issues arising from the increased consumption if consumer goods. There will be issues with the disposal of all of the BPC that breaks down after a year's use.

To your point, however, even feeding the growing population creates problems with resource scarcity. Much of the arable land of which you speak would need considerable irrigation. Our water supply might even be more at risk than our energy supply.

Regards,

D-Ray

So mankind is bad for the environment? Is what you are saying?




Barney

Too much mankind, yes :)

The earth is a machine. A (from our POV) giant. We're overloading it.

Water. Huge one! The resource wars are coming.

And the pollution! Frogs and salamanders are dying worldwide, a canary in the mine. Possibly heavy metal contamination. Worldwide!

How about the massive area of plastics in the Pacific.

Even if we miraculously reverse greenhouse production levels there will still be MASSIVE amounts of plain heat generation. Hard to destroy heat ;)

Pete

Pete are we agreeing with each other? :eek:

;)

Regards,

D-Ray

:D

Pete

:DQuaxalotl says 26 days shopping days left, Pete.;)

LOL! Spend your retirement now!

Hey, when the water crisis hits, you guys can move up here. Smelly water's better than none. You can pay me in albums :D

Pete

Nah, I'll just move back to the woods along the Russian River and drink out of that.

'Course, the meth cookers up in Mendocino tend to dump some pretty strange stuff in the headwaters up there.

John

LOL! But, are the meth guys contributing to the local economy? :D

Pete

Yeah, middle aged women are flocking to jewelry stores to replace the baubles taken from them by gun point by those meth guys.

So you think this is final proof that the Gaia Principle is true and happening now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

Then one needs to ask what could man be doing to negatively influence the Earth and why? Plus are we even able to change our ways or are we just doomed because of our nature!



Barney

We could start by banning abortion, discouraging even Kervorkian style euthanasia and increasing efforts to extend the average lifespan while stepping up efforts to cure more diseases. Remember, "Every sperm is precious, every sperm is great, when a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate."

Really, I don't think overpopulation matters, it's all in the rationing;

So long as we make sure the 10 wealthiest people on earth have at least ten billion times what they need to survive, the rest of us will be just fine, scratching it out on our own. Raise my taxes and cut "The Donalds" taxes, please, greens fees at Pebble Beach just went up again and I feel so guilty.........the Poor Dears.

Regards,
Dave

Just think Dave, the rich people will have 100 gallons of water while we only have a 1/2 pint :)

Wasn't it a Twain story about the fishhooks in [gaa! I don't want to say esquimos anymore but don't remember their 'real' name] [PCness sucks!!]? Wealth sure is relative.

Barney I think that if photosynthesis creates oxygen then it would seem the theory is presumably correct! We 'know' the great herds of days gone by shaped the natural world around them to some degree. And humans are certainly changing things, if not man made global warming, then mass exterminations and changing the physical face of the planet at least.

Pete

Inuit.;)

Regards,
Dave

Thanks. Does that mean I was counter Inuitive? :groan:

Pete

Now, that was bad.:(

Regards,
Dave

Look at other animals, any other animals. If you give them food and shelter rather than them having to forage for it, you get high populations, disease, and animals that lack the ability to provide/fend for themselves. Farmed salmon for example.
Put them in a natural setting where there's a tough environment and competition and you get a smaller, healthier population of the strongest and smartest animals.
Humans are no different.

I never figured you for a Darwinist, Was. Not very Christian of you.:rolleyes:

I find the urban way of life much to my liking. Having to constantly fend for yourself blows. You can have that bullsquat, if it makes you feel manly. Personally, having grown up in the country, I find it does NOT lead to a more hardy and intelligent stock. Quite the contrary. Isolation from the outside world leads to xenophobia, ignorance and in some cases--insanity. When I go home and see old friends, it only serves to remind me of why I left and never went back. God, what a bunch of drunken, paranoid losers.;)

Regards,
Dave

So all we need is a few more wars to thin the population? That is where this is heading with the shortages of resources projected to happen in the coming years. Some would say it is already happening.



Barney

Proverbs

6:6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; observe its ways and be wise!
6:7 It has no commander, overseer, or ruler,
6:8 yet it prepares its food in the summer;it gathers at the harvest what it will eat.
6:9 How long, you sluggard, will you lie there? When will you rise from your sleep?
6:10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to relax,
6:11 and your poverty will come like a robber, and your need like an armed man.


10:4 The one who is lazy becomes poor, but the one who works diligently becomes wealthy.

12:10 A righteous person cares for the life of his animal, but even the most compassionate acts of the wicked are cruel.
12:11 The one who works his field will have plenty of food, but whoever chases daydreams lacks wisdom.

12:27 The lazy person does not roast his prey, but personal possessions are precious to the diligent.

13:4 The appetite of the sluggard craves but gets nothing, but the desire of the diligent will be abundantly satisfied.

13:11 Wealth gained quickly will dwindle away, but the one who gathers it little by little will become rich.

13:18 The one who neglects discipline ends up in poverty and shame, but the one who accepts reproof is honored.

18:9 The one who is slack in his work is a brother to one who destroys.

21:5 The plans of the diligent lead only to plenty, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

21:25 What the sluggard desires will kill him, for his hands refuse to work.

26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own estimation than seven people who respond with good sense.
26:17 Like one who grabs a wild dog by the ears, so is the person passing by who becomes furious over a quarrel not his own.


24:30 I passed by the field of a sluggard, by the vineyard of one who lacks wisdom.
24:31 I saw that thorns had grown up all over it, the ground was covered with weeds, and its stone wall was broken down.
24:32 When I saw this, I gave careful consideration to it; I received instruction from what I saw:
24:33 “A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to relax,
24:34 and your poverty will come like a bandit, and your need like an armed robber.”

2 Thessalonians 3
3:7 For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you,
3:8 and we did not eat anyone’s food without paying. Instead, in toil and drudgery we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you.
3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate.
3:10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command: “If anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat.”
3:11 For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work but meddling in the work of others.
3:12 Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat.

You do realize that there's something for everyone's point of view in that book? Which version is the one you're quoting?

Book of Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9-21

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O LORD, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

Regards,
Dave

Then you should have no trouble finding a quote that espouses redistribution of wealth.

You're the one who brought up religion, not me.

With gene splicing, human genome project, cure for aging, biological warfare, global warming, and fundamentalist Christians it is hard to predict where this world is going.

They do sound rather ignorant from your description. Who with any intelligence would be friends with someone so disparaging?
And they drink alcohol? That's not too smart, you have to pay for alcohol. Anyone with half a brain is doing prescription drugs instead. Let the people pay for your high!
I'll bet they get up and go to work every day instead of getting food stamps too. Idiots! God!:rolleyes:

Hairless geriatric bible thumping half-man/half broccoli creatures with seven eyes and gills?

John

No, they live in a crappy little town that hasn't seen any job growth since the early '70s. They probably run methlabs. No, I'm not disparaging, I'm just telling the truth. Contrary to popular belief, some of Americas worst creeps hide in rural locations.

Regards,
Dave

You really do have a persecution complex, don't you. Tell me, is the whole world trying to live off of you? Believe it or not, balloonhead, most of us out here carry our own weight. You're not Atlas, holding up the whole fucking world. Not by a LONG shot.

Regards,
Dave

My wife was telling me about how one of the folks she works with is part of the 47%. He works as a nurse aide at night and for Wally during the day. Despite working two jobs, he needs assistance from WIC for formula for his and his wife's new baby.

Regards,

D-Ray