Free speech and assembly or not
 

Christians walking peacefully with signs displaying Christian messages during a Muslim festival in Dearborn, MI were attacked with flying stones, shoes, bottles, eggs, and other debris, injuring some. Police finally arrived on the scene only to ignore the violent Muslim mob and to demand that the evangelists leave.

Were the police wrong to ask the evangelists leave?



http://americanvisionnews.com/3904/m...the-christians

Hmm, all that video does is crash my browser. I take it the Muslims had a permit and the "Christians" did not.

If the cops weren't going to protect them they should have called it a day.


Carl

Absolutely not. These "Christians" were deliberately trying to provoke the very reaction they got. They quite literally "crashed" a peaceful gathering of Dearborn's substantial Arab community (not "Muslim") with the intent to cause trouble.

How would you Christians feel if it were Muslim's invading "St. Alfonso's Pancake Breakfast" with placards bearing verses from the Kor'an?

"The officer accused the Christians of causing a 'disturbance', saying it was 'a direct threat to the safety of everyone here.'”

And that's exactly what it was.

John

correct

Are the good Christians protected by the 1st amendment in this case?

I guess if folks can show up and protest at the funeral of a fallen US serviceman or womanr and exercise their first amendment rights, so can these folks. Doesn't mean that its the right thing to do. And, having lived and worked in Dearborn, I can also tell you that its a damn idiotic thing to do.

(Crap, I'm starting to sound like Bill!)

But, this is now private space as a permit was issued?? The holders of the permit can exclude anyone from coming in, no?

Tough one. A the political thingies I've been to the protesting party is generally confined to a fenced area. If the majority party started throwing things they'd be in trouble.

Pete

I know i can't use our town park in the summer when the camp is using the park.

Same thing with the ball fields in NY.

The Phelps-bots have been required to obtain permits for their obscene displays. Those permits have restricted them to areas adjacent to the funerals, not right up at the grace sites.

Frankly, I have nothing but disgust and contempt for both of these groups.

John

So gay priders trying to coopt a firemans parade are... OK? Or out of line?

Pete

What's your specific example?

John

Ah we had a bruhaha here a couple years back with the St Patties day parade and about every other being tagged onto whether the organziers liked it or not. Yeah or Nay?

Also, folks throwing rocks at other people should be arrested.

Pete

No One was arrested. they simply moved the trouble makers, the good Christians.

Here's another perspective on the confrontation. The "Christian" protesters sported a pig's head and signs saying "Islam is a religion of blood and murder" and yelling at festival attendees that they were going to burn in hell. It looks like these folks have been taking lessons in hatred from the Phelps folks, but perhaps not lessons in logistics. There is no indication in the story that the sign-carriers had a permit. One of the headlines that came up in a Google search was "Muslims stone Christians while police watch." In contrast,here is a perspective by other Christians.

And another.

Sounds like this is not a free speech issue, but a bunch folks wanting to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

Regards,

D-Ray

Good article. Why the Christians didn't police their own idiots is beyond me.

Pete

Frankly, I think the answer is contained within the question.

John

I honestly don't know the answer to that. The festival is actually held on city streets which are lined with shops which are all still open for business during the festival. It might require a permit, it might not.

Obviously, if the neighborhood is predominantly Muslim, then the march was a deliberate plan to elicit an angry response. In order to restore civil order in the short term, the police had no choice but to disband the march.

Having said that, the Muslims could stand to learn a little about religious tolerance. If I have to tolerate idiotic Biblethumpers living in my country, so should they. They need to remember that our 1st Amendment is the only reason they were allowed to come here in the first place.

Dave

HA, HA, HA..........LMAO!

Same reason you will, one fine day, realize that corporations do a lousy job of "self regulating", Pete.

Small clue; The biggest "idiots" among them are probably their leaders.

Dave

I would have no compuctions smacking the Phelps bunch. But I wouldn't, it's what they want. Same with the nazi/W.A.R. wackos.

No comments on the parades I mentioned? Double standards?

Pete

Ah, I see D-Ray went looking about too. I went to the home paper and not only was the 6/16 caper but there was a 6/13 caper too. :(

D.F.P. 6/16 article

Christian missionary group with pig's head taunt Arab-Americans at Dearborn festival

Tensions flared Friday evening at the annual Arab International Festival in Dearborn as members of some Christian missionary groups — including one called the Bible Believers — taunted Arab Americans with a pig’s head and signs that promoted hatred of Islam.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2012120616015


6/13 article
FBI investigating fire, anti-Arab graffiti near Dearborn mosque

The FBI is investigating a fire and graffiti found Tuesday on an event center associated with a Dearborn mosque.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2012120613007


Carl

Charming

LMAO! Good one, John.

Dave

The Christians were provocateurs and the Muslims reacted poorly. There's fault on both sides. The choice was to shut down the fest or make the Christians disburse. The latter seems to be the appropriate course of action in this instance.

Ah, Pete the devil is in the details. One difference I can see is that this is a festival rather than a parade - an ongoing stationary event instead of a parade, which is itself a type of demonstration. Did the parade protesters enter into the path of the parade? Were the protesters at the parade seeking to incite violence? IMHO a severed pigs head at a gathering of those who consider pork unclean is clearly intended to incite passions. Was there actually a violent reaction in which public order was threatened? Did those protesting the parade have their own permit to use the space they were using? All sorts of questions to answer to determine whether the situations are comparable.

Regards,

D-Ray

Ah but YOU are reasonable D. Other posters are more than tempted to mock Christians just for being Christian ;)

Me, I would take the pigs head away and whomp him with it. It's so crass. Perhaps he should give reading the Bible a try.

They glommed on to the end of the parade, heck for a while all parades. They weren't protesting just slumming for publicity. People were upset because it was a (fill in the blank) parade, not a pride one.

Pete

Actually, no. Dearborn is predominantly Arab but the majority of the Arab population is Christian. Same with Toledo, I believe.

Dave, did you see what these "Christians" were doing? Are you aware that this isn't the first year in which they've targeted this festival? This isn't about religious toleration, at least not from the Arab or Muslim side. These demonstrators are nothing but hate merchants, only slightly less horrible than the Phelps people. Do you believe that the Phelpses are deserving of any degree of "religious tolerance"?

John

Let's see.......

A severed pigs head can be quite large and messy.

Am I to believe an individual snuck it in, unbeknownst to the rest of the group?

And, oh yes, of course......We're just picking on them because they're Christians.

Oh, Boo Hoo.

Dave

Nah, just had my lawyer hat on.

From what you describe, the conduct of the gay pride folks is not comparable to the conduct of the Pelps wannabes. Poor manners, perhaps, but not in inciteful display of hate. I agree with others here that SOME of the participants in the festival overreacted. That being said, I have little sympathy for those who might have got a little lump on their head.

BTW, the Phelps folks showed up at the KU graduation. Our friends who were here from Texas, one of them a non-practicing Muslim, found them amusing. Lawrence and KU are both very gay-friendly, making them an obvious target for the haters from Topeka.

Regards,

D-Ray

If you read the article, it was a minority. The vast majority were not hate merchants, and I'm sure the vast majority of arabs aren't either. Of course in a great part of the ME the Christians would be jailed at best.

However I'll be happy to paint the entire left with the actions of a handful of kooks ;)

John you are right, I believe they are 'Chaldean' (sp?) arabs.

Pete

As far as I know D you are absolutely correct, the GP folks did not actively insult the drunken Irish firemen.

I'd be happy to talk to the Phelps crowd.

Pete

I don't agree at all and, unless you believe these people's actions to be legitimate expressions of religious faith, I doubt that you do either.

I grew up in a house of strong Christian faith. Not one of the priest, nuns or laity I encountered, some of which I came to know quite well, would view these actions as anything other than expressions of hatred and intolerance.

I never heard any of these committed and dedicated people of faith ever utter a single word that was unaccepting and disrespectful of those of a different faith or the faiths that they espoused. All that has changed. Just as in our political mess, religion has become a team sport in this country. If you're on the "wrong" team, watch out!

John

Actually, as much as I despise the Phelps group.....yes, I believe they have a right to be idiots, even in public. So long as they don't break into or seek to incite violence. Oftentime other groups, such as veterans groups show up to stand peacefully between them and the objects of their ire. And, I am fine with that too.

I don't think we are as far in disagreement as you may think, John. I see them as "merchants of hate" who were only motivated by their desire to stir up some crap too. Anti-Muslim or Anti-Arab makes little difference to me. They showed up with the obvious intent to incite passions and violence, which some on the Arab side gave them, unfortunately. The police stepped in to quell the violence. That is as it should be.

However, to claim that there isn't any religious intolerance in the Muslim community is a bit naive, IMHO. I am sure there were some present who were more than happy to oblige the incitation to violence.

BTW, That Miss Arab America is pretty darn sweet lookin'.

Dave

I'll remember this for the next time we hear of some union members, or OWS zealots misbehaving.;)

The way I read it, the confrontational and disrespectful behavior was general and, most importantly, the purpose of the demonstration to begin with.

So what? Are we to hold ourselves to the same low standard?

Yes, and Maronites, Copts and numerous Orthodox denominations. There has always been a strong Christian influence in the Middle East, both through the work of the Evangelists and the Eastern Roman Empire.

Of course, that didn't stop the Crusaders from massacring them too. Given our treatment of them then and now, it astonishes me that there are any Christians left in the region.

John

Thought you might like that Dave :D

I LOVE those guys, and have contributed to them.

John I understand. We see it more and more too. You can always tell the real Christians, they're quietly speaking to someone, anyone (regardless of appearance), not shouting foul slogans or holding decapitated pig heads (oxymoron? :)). We wouldn't be TRYING to offend people! Great way to convert them :rolleyes: I wonder if me calling them morons makes me bad?

The Big Guy did say we'd always be a little flock ;)

I wonder, as society as a whole gets cruder and cruder, can violence be far behind?

Pete

"Peacefully demonstrating".

Did you get a load of those signs?

"Muslims are nothing but BOMBERS and THIEVES!"

"WARNING: America is a CHRISTIAN NATION!............"

Yeah, that was simply meant to advance the teachings of Jesus Christ. Nothing inflammatory to be found there.

Dave

It was one group that was doing the hate spewing, and there were some folks proselytizing in a much more respectful manner. The article mentioned one person wearing a t-shirt that said I heart Muslims.

We are going to find dunderheads in all groups. I would imagine that there are even some Methodist dunderheads. :rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

Still.

Consider this, concerning even the well meaning.

Your community decides to have a festival, you take your kids there for a day of fun and family time. A group of Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists or whoever, assuming everyone in the crowd is Christian because they're all white with maybe a few blacks, shows up to "prosletyze" and "save" everyone from Christianity..................

You're going to find this rather annoying (Not to mention; Arrogant.) at the least.....Aren't you?

Dave

For Pete's sake I'll agree but far fewer Methodists are to be found being disrespectful of others, we walk on water...;):p