Cuba and the Elephants
 

"We are free, but not to be evil, not to be indifferent to human suffering, not to profit from the people, from the work created and sustained through their spirit of political association, while refusing to contribute to the political state that we profit from. We must say no once more. Man is not free to watch impassively the enslavement and dishonor of men, nor their struggles for liberty and honor."

"Freedoms, like privileges, prevail or are imperiled together You cannot harm or strive to achieve one without harming or furthering all."

"It is terrible to speak of you, Liberty, for one who lives without you. A wild best does not bend its knee before its tamer with greater fury. One discovers the depths of hell, and from there looks up at freemen with their sun-like arrogance. One bites the air, like a hyena biting the bars of its cage. One's spirit writhes inside the body, like a man who has been poisoned. The wretch who lives without freedom feels like dressing in the mud from the streets Those who have you, o Liberty, do not know. you. Those who do not have you should not speak of you, but win you."


Jose Marti (1853- 1895)


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Cuba and the Elephants

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCIk66EPIV4


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If Cuba is a shithole---- do something about it.

I'm not doing it for you.

Dave

Marti was talking about the Spanish Crown. To compare the Castro regime to that is laughable.

Do you not understand ,or you just don't want to understand the message?.....you are seeing it from the wrong angle........but ,I will show you some history to refresh your memory. :)


"THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE ‘LADIES OF HAVANA’ TO THE U.S. WAR OF INDEPENDENCE WAS OF VITAL IMPORTANCE."

This is a little known fact about the American Revolutionary War.

The Washington Times, (7/2000)
Editorial Section, by Antonio Benedi.
(Benedi serves on the board of directors of the Patrick Henry Center for Individual Liberty.)

The people of Cuba have a long history of respect and support for the United States .

Cubans, as a people, helped raise much-needed funds for the Revolutionary Army of George Washington. The “Havana’s Ladies,” a group of Cuban mothers, heard General Washington’s plea for desperately needed funds and raised an astonishing amount for that time. They sent to Virginia the equivalent in today’s money of $28 million. This has received little exposure in American history books, but is well documented. The inscription that the “Ladies of Havana” wrote on their contribution was:
“So the American mothers’ sons are not born as slaves.”

The pledge of the Havana ‘s Ladies, remained very little known, with the exception of an American historian Stephen Bonsal, who wrote:

“That sum collected [by the Havana 's Ladies] must be considered as the ground whereon was erected the American independence.”

Gen. Jean Baptiste de Rochambeau wrote in his “Daily Memoirs,” available in the Library of Congress:

“The joy was enormous when it was received, the money from Havana: The contribution of 800,000 silver pounds which helped stop the financial bankruptcy (of the Revolutionary Army) and raised up the moral spirit of the Army that had began to dissolve.”

Carmen Maria Rodriguez has also done research into this chapter of the Revolutionary war. She writes:

This July 4th, New York will be scenario of the largest maritime event in the history of humankind. In this regard, the city, and the nation are outdoing themselves to stage along with simultaneous fireworks, one of the most impressive displays of popular joy and freedom ever staged commemorating a nation’s freedom.

Being Cuban born and living within sight of the Statue of Liberty, I cannot help but think of who and what made this possible. My mind races back to a demonstration held in New York by Cuban Americans when someone handed to me a piece of paper in which the former US Ambassador to Cuba Stephen Bonsal wrote, “The Contribution of Cuban women by way of their jewelry, could very well be the foundation on which is founded, the freedom of the United States”. Bonsal, having lived in Havana , also penned a book: “When the French were here”.

A friend of mine, Tirso Gonzalez, veteran of the 2506 Brigade, once heard me talking about this case, and both he and I set out to investigate in the NY Public Library if this indeed was true. This is what we both found out:

General George Washington had a dream to liberate the colonies from the English. He also had a band of mercenaries whom to pay, since he relied on these type of soldiers to wage the war which he felt was just and necessary.


The French were here in the colonies helping out, and given that there was no money to finance the mercenaries or the war, Lafayette commanded the frigate known as “L’Aigrrette”, to travel first to Cadiz, Spain, to see if money could be gotten. To no avail, the Spanish in Cadiz were very kind but not financially forthcoming. The ship then went on to Saint Domingue, what is now Haiti, and what was then the richest of all colonies given the enormous wealth to be had in the sugar industry. The French there told the French on the ship, “Nous n’avons pas d’argent”, in other words, there would be no money from Saint Domingue sent to Washington . L’Aigrette then set sail to the Port of Havana to obtain water and supplies to return up to Virginia empty handed. It was there that word got out, that Washington needed funding to stage a battle which was at the time only in the planning stages. Women, girls, from Havana to Matanzas to Pinar del Rio gave freely of their jewelry. The French even documenting that they disposed of their diamonds, to help Washington in his quest for freedom and the financing of his mercenaries.
The women of Cuba came forth, knowing that this was a just cause, giving up of their only wealth, which was their jewelry, to assist the love of independence of another nation.

When L’Agraitte set sail and arrived in September of 1781 in Virginia, General Washington upon knowing that there was sufficient financing of over 1,200,000 pounds of Cuban gold, silver and diamonds, historians point out that he lost his usual sedate composure and threw his hat in the air from sheer joy.

Cuban Women’s Contribution to the cause of American Independence thus made possible the financing of the decisive battle of American Independence, known as the then on 31 October 1781, that General Cornwallis of England, had his sable turned over to General Washington, as a sign of surrender of the English to a band of dreamers know as the Founding Fathers of the United States of America.

“May God bless the children of these Cuban women who loved their own freedom, but knew that the cause of liberty and justice is one to be pursued at all costs everywhere in the world where there is need for such a state of affairs.”

When New York rejoices this Fourth of July, I too in a way shall rejoice doubly, since it was our Cuban ancestors, and despite all the disdain many feel for this land, that made possible, the freedom and bounty of so many. And by writing this, I hope to start waking up people’s minds that Cubans even today as in 1781 maintain their unique tradition of defending freedom above all else.



;)


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If you don't like Cubas communist government, (And I don't blame you for that.), then do something about it.

"......Cubans even today as in 1781 maintain their unique tradition of defending freedom above all else"

Really? Then what in the fuck are they waiting for? It's been over sixty years, now.

No. I'm not risking any American lives to do it for them.

Dave

I never knew that, thanks for the post, and bless your women. I won't view Cuba the same again.

Pete

More anti Cuban propaganda without a hint of CIA activities. :D

Here is a NICE fellow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

Well, there you go. A Cuban actually trying to do something about it. Get enough of them on board and communist government will come down.

Consider Poland and Solidarnosc.

Fancy that.

Dave

Hi Dave ;I would like show you a beautiful part of the island of Cuba,but you can be completely convens that we have not come to America for a plate of food, we have come by freedom and work ,where our work is reflected ....... and the cubans are among the minority that most contribute to the internal revenue in the United States.

Someday all people can enjoy this paradise, and again become assets of the Cubans and the world. Watch this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhC1U8hj4Yk

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...;storyMediaBox

:)


http://futurepredictions.com/wp-cont.../12/cuba-1.jpg



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Yes, it is beautiful.

Yes, I would like to go there some day.

No, I would not send American troops to liberate it, unless the Cuban people had already begun the fight.

And maybe not even then.

Dave

Julio I'm with Dave in respect to Cuban self determination. It must come from within Cuba. The days of interventionism hopefully have been relegated to the past in regards to any of our neighbors. We need to pay attention to the tragic lessons and misguided attempts of instilling democracy in Cuba, Nicaragua, Colombia, Argentina also lately Afghanistan, Iraq ad inf.

In every case the forces behind these excursions invariably get corrupted by the Bautistas and Samozas not to mention United Fruit & Exxon (just a couple examples.) i'm of the mind that warriors should exclude themselves from governing in any shape or form.

I hope that most Americans get this, whether you're a Cuban American or if you cling to a refugee mindset and still call yourself a Cuban even though born in the States and wish to overthrow the the Cuban government- do it with your own efforts (blood and money).I'm just guessing but I think that this is what Dave is getting at.

Your claim as to the superior monetary contribution that the Cubans have made ("internal revenue") is mystifying to me.
Do you mean Cuban Americans taxes?or are you claiming to be the pre eminent job creators/revenue creators or what?

The only Corp we should be sending anywhere is the Peace Corp. Not our Navy, Army or Air Force - those are for our protection when attacked. Call it neo isolationism if you will. I prefer to think of it as being realistic with an eye towards history. This grand experiment is doomed if we continue down the imperial path, that's just my opinion.

Nice story about The Ladies of Havana but could there have been just a little motivation of animosity towards the British in this? The Brits had taken Jamaica and many other Spanish Crown possessions in that era. Not to mention the pirates (privateers) whom had taken far more silver than the amount offered up to George Washington. I feel that you may be over romantizing their motivations.

I do say Viva Cuba and I'm muy sympatico but we shouldn't interfere as a nation with any peoples self determination except our own.

Thanks for stating this better than I had, Bob.

You're right.

I'm tired of watching flag draped coffins, busted up bodies and damaged minds coming home----after fighting someone elses battle. I've been watching it my entire life, since the Vietnam era. What's worse is I think too many people have come to expect this of us. They simply tolerate tyranny for decades waiting for us to do something about it. And that needs to stop. It's not good for them or us.

Having said that, I am not opposed to assisting in other ways when possible. I just draw the line at sending our young people to do the dirty work unless it is absolutely necessary. (And I'm talking about things on the order of mass genocide or overwhelming armed invasion upon an ally.)

Dave

Thanks Dave, too much time on my hands lately.;) (Damn, I can't wait to get back to work.)
Yep. The defense of Kuwait(1st Gulf War) was justified IMO, stopping genocide is also a very legitimate reason. My Dad's outfit liberated one of the Buchenwald camps in Germany (Tenth Armored)

Observations re video:

Dispite the cry about food most of the protestors appear well fed.

A good number of the anti government spoke persons appear to be black.
The possible reason being that they do not have families or relatives abroad
because of the fact that the bulk of the exile community is white or near white.
The blacks despite their newly acquired education have not the connection to foreign
largess and therefore find themselves in lower tier economic positions.

Well Julio, I don't know shit about Cuba other than you have damn good spicy food, damn good cigars, and Castro seizing power hasn't done ya'll any good.

IMHO.

I'm not sure of the point of your threads, but I assume that you are suggesting that the US assumes normal relations with Cuba. If that's the case, I wholeheartedly agree.

I figure that the Castro boys have pretty much played their last card anyway. And normalized relations would not only benefit Cuba, but the United States as well.

Feel free to correct me as necessary, as I don't know shit about Cuba. Hell, I don't even know the proper slur to call "you people". That's a joke, BTW.

I don't even know enough to agree or disagree with you. In short, I'm unable to establish what premise you are advancing.

No disrespect meant as I'm only curious to your position.

But I like ya,

Chas

I was referring to the minority that more pay TAX in the United States by their income,this is good for us because it gives an idea of wealth we generate,and at the same time your entrepreneurial talent.

.........excuse my english :)

I look forward in seeing Cuba in a state of rights, freedom of expression, respect for human rights, not panic and not intolerance............. and end the communist apartheid.



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However our policy toward Cuba has kept 3 generations of Cuba's worse off than they would have been.

Are you referring to the Cubans as a distinct minority separate from the larger hispanic minority?

If yes, then I doubt tax inflow from the Cubans could be larger than that of Mexican Americans.

Median Income/Earnings by Sex, Nationality, and Year.

Ratio of Hispanic/
In Dollars Non-Spanish

Nationality 1969 1976 1982 1990 1969 1976 1982 1990

Males
Non-Hispanic - 8,981 13,759 22,207 - - - -
Mexican - 6,450 10,397 12,894 - 0.72 0.76 0.58
Puerto Rican - 6,687 9,206 18,193 - 0.74 0.67 0.82
Cuban - 7,074 8,561 17,455 - 0.79 0.62 0.79

Females
Non-Hispanic - 3,394 5,482 12,438 - - - -
Mexican - 2,750 4,933 9,286 - 0.81 0.90 0.75
Puerto Rican - 3,837 4,698 11,702 - 1.13 0.86 0.94
Cuban - 3,407 4,682 12,904 - 1.00 0.85 1.04

Family
Non-Hispanic 8,011 - 22,80036,330 - - - -
Mexican 5,488 9,546 16,900 23,240 0.69 -0.74 0.64
Puerto Rican4 ,969 7,290 11,300 18,008 0.62 - 0.5 0.5
Cuban 6,383 11,772 18,000 31,439 0.8 - 0.79


http://www.latinoteca.com/latcontent...20and%20Cubans





.....but this is not important, the important thing is to see Cuba free and then tell you. ;)

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!). Still don't quite understand what you're getting at. Are you saying it means we have more rich people, because they are not repressed as they are in Cuba?

2). Don't worry about it, you're doing okay.

3). I look forward to the day we actually have all of those things here in the U.S., although it's true that we don't have anything anywhere near as oppressive as communism, despite the fact that half of the population seems to think we do.:rolleyes: I would especially like to be rid of panic and intolerance, but then most of our politicians would have no tools to campaign with. Especially the Santorum types.:rolleyes:

Dave

Dave Dave :), Are you confusing this more :D

post #9 juliovideo -"and the cubans are among the minority that most contribute to the internal revenue in the United States."

post #11 bobabode - "Your claim as to the superior monetary contribution that the Cubans have made ("internal revenue") is mystifying to me.
Do you mean Cuban Americans taxes?or are you claiming to be the pre eminent job creators/revenue creators or what?"

post #16 juliovideo - " I was referring to the minority that more pay TAX in the United States by their income,this is good for us because it gives an idea of wealth we generate,and at the same time your entrepreneurial talent.




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No, I'm trying to understand, and you're confusing me.

Are you trying to say Cubans contribute more to U.S. tax revenue than the rest of us do?

Because if you are, that is an absolute joke, my friend. You could all pack up and go home tomorrow and it would make little difference outside of Florida.

Dave

I do not think this shows total tax to the government from any group.

BTW your link is very informative: lots of History.

Dave, Bob, are you saying we shouldn't help them by bombing them? ;)

I wonder if, after the Castros are dumped on the ash heap of history, true Democracy will rise in Cuba?

Pete

:eek: .......Sorry, I didn't mean that !.........From the beginning I said "minority".




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Like we did in Iraq, Pete?:rolleyes:

I certainly hope so. After the Cubans themselves have deposed them.........

Then maybe we can restore true Democracy here!:)

First we have get our politicians and SCOTUS judges to stop sucking up to the corporatocracy. I just don't see that happening now that they can legally buy elections.......................:rolleyes:

Dave

.......good question !

“In the world there are no perfect men or women, all humans are composed of merits and sins. Likewise there can be no perfect or infallible states or governments. The means to identify perversity and justice is the same in the individual and in the community. He is called just who possesses more merits than sins, and in the perverse the terms are inverted. The same occurs in the state and government. If in the conduct of its members merits exceed sins, justice reigns in that state or government, and if sins exceed merits, there reigns corruption.”

Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon




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Oh, Chist on a pogo stick, it's you again.

Tell your people to grow some balls and depose Castro themselves.

Regards,
Dave

More than likely the Cubanos will replace communism with oligarchy once again.

Bautista was a butcher by most historical accounts. Am I wrong?

There are men who live contented through they live without decorum. Others suffer as if in agony when they see around them people living without decorum. There must be a certain amount of decorum in the world, just as there must be a certain amount of light. When there are many men without decorum, there are always others who themselves possess the decorum of many men. These are the ones who rebel with terrible strength against those who rob nations of their liberty, which is to rob men of their decorum. Embodied in those men are thousands of men, a whole people, human dignity.


Regards ..........Julio ;-)

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Lets take an objective, non sentimental view. In the 60 years that the Castros have been in power: What has happened to the spanish speaking Central America and South American neighborhood?

Esto muerte. From Tierra del Fuego to Baja California over to Texas. For everything from cherries (from Chile, thank you) to cocaina (from Colombia & Peru. No, thank you).

Excellent, thanks.


I'm not as hopeful as you sadly. As the crushing power of government grows and consolidates there will be no place for men to regroup, no place to prepare. The serpent gathers to a head.

Pete

The serpent is coming for people like you first, Pete.

John

Fixed it for ya.

Regards,
Dave

I agree Dave. It's an alliance worldwide.

Pete

So? Move to Cuba and grow cane, ya rummy!:cool:

Only if I can drive an old Chevy :D

Actually I think Cuba is going to do very very well once it hits the open market. The question is will an internal cartel take all the money, or will everyone benefit?

Pete

C'mon, Pete. Be honest-you've been dreaming about those old American cars the Cuban's have been hoarding & fixing up for the last half a century;). That's really why you want relations normalized, isn't it?:D

Dang, busted. Have you heard any of the rig-fixes they do to keep them running? Good old Cuban ingenuity :)

Pete