Anyone into horns?
 

I'm playing around with some today. Just got the Edgars a couple weeks ago and finally got some time to hook them up. Sensitive buggers with JBL 2425HS drivers on them. I'm using just the woofers on the bottom JBLs (LE14As). I like it, and so does Dwight Yokam.:)

I like 'em.

Looking at that cable you're feeding them with, are you pushing them with your welder?

Chas

Ha, the fat cable is just a set of bi-wires, so there's actually four wires in there. My last BIG horn set up used door bell wire for speaker leads. I just had a chance to buy this expensive set of wires on the cheap so I did it. I'm not much for snake oil when it comes to audio. Give me a decent TT, a really good cart, nice tube preamp, and a good 15 watt tube amplifier and I'm good to go. I must admit, I do usually put somewhat nice caps in my amps and crossovers, but nuttin over 10 or 12 bucks each. I like Kimbers, and Auricaps best I guess, although the Auricaps seem to take awhile to start sounding smooth. I've been going through all my Hillbilly type records today just having a blast. Done been through all my Johnny, Merle, Dwight, and Porter Wagoner. Now it's going to get serious with some Flatt and Scruggs and the like. Got Kenny Baker on the deck right now, man what a fiddler. They don't make'm like him anymore.:)

I'm using 14 ga copper to feed my speakers, I prewired my house when I built it with the speakers in one room and the components in the other. Too much like work to change it now.

Chas

14ga is my go to size for speaker wire. I wasn't into the hobby when I built my place and the only speaker wire in the walls is for the bathroom ones which are mounted up high in the corners. Haven't had a rig in there for awhile though, I watch news in there now. (or read Handgunner Magazine);)

Hey, your new Edgars are looking right at home on those Dorian cabs :) If you can, try alligning the acoustic centers of woofer and your compression driver just to see how it effects soundstage focus. It can look a little funky with the horn riding out that far but I'd be curious to hear your thought as you change the position (forward or back) of the horn/driver.

Looking good!


RC

I wasn't too much into this either when I built my place, or I would have pulled the speaker wires in conduit at least through the plates like I did with everything else.

Even worse than that, I stapled them to the studs so the rockers didn't pull them out of the boxes. But they work, ain't no sense in fixing something that ain't broke.

Chas

That's what I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just so happens that most of my old junk is broke more than not. I'll try that Ron, and give you a report. I was noticing the risers on these Dorian cabs are in pretty bad shape. I wonder if I should build a hardwood set just like the stock ones, or just take them off, or build something that tips back a hair. What did you build to hold your Edgars when you got past the rice bags.

I wouldn't concern myself too much with the risers until you get everything sorted out. The position and angle of the horn in relation to your listing position is going to be more of a factor and not the woofer.

I forgot to mention that you will notice a fair amount of change focus and imaging as you move (pivot) the horn/drivers to the inside or out also. These 650hz horns aren't anywhere near as particular as a 350Hz Edgarhorn in that regard but you will be surprised as to how much effect it has on the overall picture.

I'll go take some pics of what I eventually came up with for a driver support and show ya.


RC

Cool, I really appreciate the help Ron. The only horns I ever played with before were 511s and bowtie 800hz Emilars. I think the Emilars were way better then the 511s btw. I'm going to force myself to put on some Jazz now. Maybe Kenny Burlle and Coltrane, they always had a sort of synergistic effect IMHO.

Wow, placement changes are amazing. I've got them pretty close now I think. Must be cause I can't get Nipper out of the sweetspot long enough for me to get a good listen. She loves good female voice bluegrass. The overall impression I'm getting is, it's a horn, but doesn't really sound like a horn. Sounds sort of like the best paper top end I've heard, kinda, maybe, a little.:rolleyes: I have a CS5000 Dual with a stock arm and Denon DL103R LOMC running into some Auido Technica step ups that I really like. Then into Toxcrusaders pre that I'm going to miss when he picks it up tomorrow. The amp is my version of an ST35 running original Z565 outputs. Not a bad rig for spinning Buck Owens on.:D


Edit, if either of you guys run across an Ampex 402 like this one, I strongly recommend it after a nice overhaul with good components. Sucker's dead quiet and has a lovely tone to it. Nuttin fancy on the tubes, just good matched section RCA greys.

Just played this here CeeDee and the imaging was spooky. These Edgars will image their asses off.:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhil5...6D003EA78DE0C9

Hey, I'm glad to see you taking the time to play around with positioning and hearing the results of your efforts :) It took me about a week of messing around with it off and on before I settled on where they sit now. They sound pretty good even when you don't have them dialed in so it's quite a shock to hear them once you do. They do image like crazy!

Here are a couple of pics of what I ended up doing for driver supports. Blocks of foam meticulously carved to conform to the driver radius with an electric knife ;)

I will probably do something a little more aesthetically pleasing in wood at some point but I'm perfectly happy with this solution for now.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...5/P1010182.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...5/P1010186.jpg

RC

You guys put me to shame. I'm currently refinishing a pair of Aztec Cezanne's. The cabinets are solidly built, but were terribly scratched. They sanded down nicely and are looking better after a couple of coats of tung oil. Unfortunately, I did a piss-poor job of trying to rebuild the corners with wood filler. I should have at least tried to darken the filler before applying the oil. Oh well, a learning experience. They are probably going to live in the garage anyway.

Regards,

D-Ray

Those look sweet, Jay!

I have one Roberts monoblock all sorted out and singing like a meadowlark. As soon as I ferret out the source of an intermittent noise in the other, I'll be building some horn based speaks. I have a set of Altec 808-8As laying around.....I think I'll start there.

Dave

That's part of the fun, D-Ray. There are never a shortage of speakers to refinish and always something new to learn.

I wouldn't feel to bad about it. Getting filler material the correct color to blend in with the wood veneer is usually dang near impossible. Particularly with larger filled areas or corners and such.

RC

Hey Ron, those foam stands are light years past my bags o rice. The little woman is home now, so no tunes right now.:(

D-Ray, I did something even worse once. I filled the corners, sanded them square, re-veneered the speakers, then proceeded to over sand the corners into the filler. I was ticked off, but I went ahead and oiled them up anyhow. It actually ended up looking kind of cool to me, so you may like it too. F ups are the fun part of DIY.;)


Overposted ya Ron. Hey, what are you doing with those big 2 inch drivers you had?

I've got 2 pair actually. Both pair are just sitting on the shelf right now waiting for something or another. Maybe a pair of 500Hz Edgars when the time is right ;)


RC

Sounds like a darn good place to start. Those little Roberts amps are the bees knees for big speakers. Hopefully your room is bigger than mine, as the bass cabinet sizes are a booger sometimes.


Hey Ron, I'm thinking of dragging the scoops out. what the heck, the wife is already pissed. She came home, looked at the speakers everywhere and said "What is all this stuff"?:D

Being a paper-pusher for a living, it's fun to do things like rehabbing speakers and slinging a little solder. The hard part is that it too often looks like a paper-pusher has been doing the refinishing or solder slinging. :o But there is satisfaction in simple things - like a recapped pair of EPI 100 - pure beautiful simplicity.

Regards,

D-Ray

I'm expecting great things from them.

Right now, they are hooked up to a pair of tiny 4" Magnavox sealed box fullranges and it's astonishing the (near field) soundstage I'm getting from them on the bench. I'm running Tung-Sol 12ax7s and (repro) Mullard 6bq5's in them. A significant upgrade from the 40 year old stock NECs that were in them, as near as I can tell through the crappy little speakers. Bigger and more efficient speaks will reveal all.

Now to build some nice wooden cabinets for them. Time for a trip to Yukon Lumber.

Dave

Audio gear always sounds better when you've had your own hands in there working on it. It's just one of the un-written laws of physics.:) Keep at it Don, you will be amazed at how fast it will come to you. You know you are always welcome at my shop, just ignore the McCain Palin sticker on the tool box, and we'll concentrate on audio, not politics.:p

I've seen a couple different ways to convert these for Hi-Fi, but not the one that gets rid of the 6267s (thanks by the way). Do you have a schematic or anything? Speaking of the little Magnavox speakers, I once had a set of small ones that used a woofer (8 inch mebee) and a horn for the upper mids / highs. Damn they sounded good. I was using them outside one day and forgot to bring them in, of course it rained that night and ruined the cabs.:o

BTW, Ron, I could easily live with these on the Dorian bottoms. Man do they show how bad the tater horn really was (I wonder if the driver on it is good, or if it was part of the problem). I can only imagine how they will be with a proper 15" bottom. The woofers I have to choose from are 515 8Gs or 416 8As. The 515s are way more massive, and supposedly have the sweetest mid-range of any of the big Altec drivers, but I've never heard either pair so I know nuttin. I also still have the Eminence Gamma 15s that I ran in the scoops. What are your honest thoughts on these Edgars with JBL copy bass scoops? The problem I had when running them back when, was the damn sweetspot was so narrow you almost had to turn your head and listen with one ear. That was with 511s and 902 drivers. I attributed the narrow sweet spot to the size of my room. In other words, you couldn't get far enough back from them to make them sound right. I wonder what Suzi would say if she came home and I had the couch moved all the way back to the wall where my kitchen door is, and the scoops downstairs. Anyone got a spare bedroom or couch I could borrow for a year or two?:p Oh hey, I also have a pair of A7 cabs???????????

LE14's are nice woofers and I would think that they will provide you with the greatest LF of the bunch in those cabs. Altec 515's are really nice also but with limited LF and really excel in more of a back loaded or front horn cab. Your scoops are nifty but just by physics and the nature of their design, won't do LF like the LE14's will. Horn bass can be a tough one to work with sometimes. You can only squeeze about 3 octaves out of them before they run out of gas. If you start too low or crossover to high using them for a 2-way, you can lose information in the upper midrange. They are also room eater uppers. I guess it just depends on what is more important to you.

Just on the surface, I would think that you be best off doing what you are doing right now with the Dorian cabs. I would spend some time with those dialing things in and really getting a feel for how things sound before confusing the issue by mixing thing up too quickly.

Those potato masher horns are cool as hell but your Edgar/JBL horns are better on a lot of different levels.

RC

Sounds like good advice to me. I just finished listening to Paper Airplane. Oh my.:)

I need to run out to EW's to pick up a couple 560 ohm 3 watt Rs for EKmannings Bogens I'm rebuilding, but I can't leave these horns. Mouser here I come.:D

I've found they can be very addicting :)



RC

Thanks for the encouragement. So the only wing-nuts to talk about would be something that might hold a shelf on an audio rack. ;) I do want to attend Jay's Tube Academy sometime. I have an old guitar amp that I'm trying to fix for a friend, a tube amp pulled (actually waiting to be pulled) from an old console, and a Sony RTR with an internal tube amp. Today, though, is deep cleaning for a Pioneer SX-950.

Regards,

D-Ray

Which Sony is it D? If it's the 5000, the output TXs are to die for, and have a 600 ohm tap to put you in headphone Nirvana. I think I'm getting "decent" at geetar amps finally. I built one for Steve over at AK, and he said it was outstanding. He might have just been being nice though, you know how he is (Fotno). Heck, I'll even cover the McCain sticker with a big new Telefunken sticker I got the other day. Everyone loves Tele's right? .........................or Left.:D

Yikers, audio is fun again!!! These are addictive, and I'm afraid I'm hooked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtPykCx25ak

Yes, I have schematics and owners manual for the Roberts and a service manual for the Akai M8. There are some minor differences between the Roberts and the Akai, however. Roberts imported Akai units and modified then rebadged them. The Roberts units have additional shielding and some higher quality parts in them, along with a few small circuit changes. But, the M8 troubleshooting guide has been helpful. (Although the copy quality is poor and hard to read.)

Dave

I might have to get you to email me some copies. I have some Akai M8, and some Roberts decks.


Looks like these cross around 2k or so Ron. This is what the Fluke says when set to average and jamming some Whitey Ford. I've got a set of quality two way crossovers that Nate built, and a set of some I did back in the day. May have to break them out and play some more. I get the feeling these like clean vinyl a little more than CDs, or maybe my vinyl rig is just better than my CD deal, but crap, it's an Arcam.

I'll see what I can do. PM your email and snail mail address again.

Dave

I appreciate the hell out of that, will do.

Well poop, old Toxcrusader just picked up the little Ampex 402 I built for him. He brought his better half with him, and we sat through Allison Krauss' Paper Airplane on CeeDee, and one side of a new Johnny Cash album. He said, my gosh, it sounds like Johnny is in this room with us. Those little 402s do have a tasty phono section once you get the loading right. They were originally designed as console pres that used a funky EV cart that wanted something like 100k loading. I got it right to 47.3k with a single resistor change while leaving the crystal input and RIAA curve in tact. I think he really likes it, and it should be a sweet rig with the matching amps that he's rebuilding himself. They are 6973 monos with real nice looking iron. I think I'll dust off my Eico HF 85.:)

Sounds like some good tunes going down over there :) The Ampex sure sounds like it turned out nice.


Nate built you some x-overs, eh? What might of those been for? 2K is a tad higher then you need to be but much better than crossing over too low. Sounds like your good to go for now!

The room is looking great also by the way!


RC

Thanks Ron, even my wife was pleased with the end result of my labor today. She likes the Edgars too, and said they don't sound "tinny" like the Altecs did. She suggested I sell the Altecs, imagine that.:p

Remember a few years back, or a couple maybe, when Nate was playing with some Altecs and big cabinets. They may have been Karlsons, or the Barzillay jobs,, I can't remember. I know that Zilch designed them and Nate did his usual good work at building them. I will pull them out and see where they cross. I'm going to try to get dcgillespie to help me with some mods on the HF 85. I was over at DIY last night and they just happened to have a 85 thread going and he was participating, so...............I could get lucky. It sounds good as built, but I want to replace the shielded copper signal wire with some shielded silver I recently purchased. After I finish EKmanning's Bogens, and a couple preamp mods for cableguy bill, I'll be back on my flying V pre. Remember that one? 6J5s and 76s with a separate power supply chassis. I hope it turns out good, the 76 is supposed to be one of the best antique tubes out there. Very open, detailed, and airy is what I've heard. I guess that means it sounds good.:p

Ok sure, I do remember Nate working on a pair of Barzilays with Altec 511's I think. Man, that was some time ago now. Sounds like you are going to be a busy guy for a while.

Dave is a great guy. He was helping me sort through my Webster Hammond amps but had to step away from the project a few months back. I'm hoping to get back at it now that winter is really here now and we are past the holidays. He's been extremely helpful, enthusiastic and patient. The later is pretty important when working with a maroon like myself ;)

I do remember that your starting that preamp. Good to hear that your finally going to get some time to get back to it. It's going to be a nice one.

I got a ton of info about my eico hf 85 lately from DC, so I'm going to do some mods that will get the DC off of the tone controls and eliminate the need for the output caps. At least that's the way I'm understanding it at present. I hate having to ask the really gifted guys to draw it out for me with a crayon, but I can swallow a pretty large amount of pride in exchange for good Hi-Fi. Hell, without you Ron, I'd be lost when it comes to speakers, and that's no lie my friend. I still only understand about half of what you say, but the more I read it, the more of it sinks in.;)