When does it stop?
 

First we had to release a bunch of CIA memos for some sort of BS witch-hunt, now the ACLU is suing to get pictures of "abused" captives released? Can anyone explain to me what good either of these acts will accomplish? Will the PC left ever be happy, as long as America is a world power? I just wish that every miserable asshat out there that hates America, would just freekin leave it.

Since when does opposing the use of torture in my name make me a "miserable asshat that hates America"?

We're supposed to be the good guys! The "white hats"! It's hard to convince the world of that when we behave so poorly.

Information received under torture is notoriously unreliable. Torturing prisoners makes it much more likely our boys will have to go through it.

As far as I'm concerned, torture is un-American and anybody who would condone it really loses credibility.

The USSR was a superpower too. Did their ends justify their means?

Don't feed the trolls please.

Hell yeah!

Rush Limbaugh for President!!!

:D





Indy

since when does being in disagreement with the actions of my government mean that i hate America?

face facts. we tortured captives in Gitmo. oh yeah, we used "enhanced interrogation tactics". you can call a turd a rose, it'll still smell like shit.

two wrongs don't make a right. torture is wrong, regardless the reason(s) for it. those who authorized it should be punished.

For the record, I fully support "torture". That is all.

Even on American female soldiers captured by the enemy?

C'mon man. Take another look at my avatar.

Trollin' trollin' trollin'. Keep them threads a 'rollin'... Rawhide!

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7759867.story

Obie put the troops first.

The problem with this is that the "photos" aren't the problem, the problem is what the photos show, and hiding the photos doesn't hide the truth of what happened, in fact one could easily argue that Obama is now going against his word to have a more open government, which will simply discredit him furhter and the main issue will not be resolved and it will come back to haunt us.

History is full of mistakes this country has made and refused to admit, it is also full of cases where we half heartedly admitted the mistake and then tried to white wash it, the problem is that doesn't absolve of us our collective guilt and I believe we are now just starting to see what the penalty for our sins will be.

Personally I think it is the duty of every citizen in this country to demand to be told what is being done in our name, because we all pay the price for the shadow games and crimes that have been ciommited in our name.

I respect your sevice to this country Rich, I would also point out that there are quite a few veterans who have served with honor and distinction who take issue with your view but it's refreshing to see you express it without calling everyone who disagrees with you an asshat.

Why not, we'd just be adding to the long line of lying hypocrites who have sat in the big comfy chair.

I wish Powell would challenge him to a cage match though, I have a big problem with fat pompous asses making money spreading hatred and slamming someone who has served this country with honor and distinction when that fat ass hasn't done a damn thing he wasn't sure served himself first and foremost.

Bad things are done in wartime, as the bumper sticker says excrement occurs. Go back to WW I, the war to end all wars, and poison gas. Go back to WW II and Coventry, Dresden and V1 and V2 bombs. Wars are mostly started by old men and fought by young men, it is the sole remaining obscenity we have.

This is true. War is outdated; Antiquated thinking. It's a throwback to a time when the world seemed big enough to believe we could do something "over there" and not have it affect us "over here". I've got news. There is no "over there" anymore. It's all right here.

It seems, as a species, we are literally retarded in our development when it comes to war. Truth is, it takes a lot more intellegence, courage and bravery to get along with cultures who have different world-views than it it does to kill them. To choose creative solutions over destructive ones takes a lot of work and is rarely simple, easy, or free of compromise.

But I'm not fooling myself. We're never gong to get there. At least not without a big die-off. As George Carlin said in his most-excellent "Jammin' New York" show; "Pack your shit folks, we're goin' away"

My $0.02

Didn't mean to troll fellas, I just had my neck hair all up. As far as torturing some towel headed motherf@cker bent on killing American women, children, and old people, I'm all for it. Hell, they crack like little girls from such scary things as getting water poured up their noses, and caterpillars in their cells. I guess I just have my own reasons for hating them, that's all. I guess the America I'm talking about people hating, is the old one. The one that dropped atomic bombs on a people, to save her own sons. I guess I'm just old and set in my ways, and those ways are near about gone. The hell of it though, is I never noticed the changes. I never thought of myself as a right wing radical, but I guess that maybe I am. I sure don't know when that happened. Ha, on second thought, maybe it was the "tea party" thing after all.:p

I really wasn't trying to troll, but just throw a thread out to see who was who around here and get to know some folks.

I can agree with most of this, but what do you do when a Foreign "people" come to our shores and start killing? I know America isn't innocent in everything, but I don't think it's always our fault either. When is the last time an American flew a loaded passenger jet through a building full of innocent people just going to work (say, in the name of Christianity) in any foreign land? If water-boarding people that would do these things, has helped in any small way to keep America safe, I say thank you to George Bush, and all involved. I ask again, what good will bringing this all up "now" do anyone?

Sounds good, tell that to the Jihadis though. I do believe this country has enough checks and balances, left and right, warmongers and peaceniks to keep us from pulling some rash move like arbitrarily killing several thousand innocent civilians. I spent a year in the sand-box and I know that losers that do stupid stuff to civilians and detainees alike are the exception, not the rule. I also know that I had the responsibility to keep my Soldiers alive; if an insurgent definitely had information about an IED planted for my troops and I didn't do everything I could to get it out of him or her, for the sake of ideals, the parents/children/spouses/family/friends/etc. would deserve a shot at me for not doing my job. I believe EITs (PC for torture) should be used as a last resort, and only used if there is no doubt the information is there to be obtained. Our guys live, their guys live.
Those that want to release photos of EITs and those that abhor EITs, spend a few nights on the road around Baghdad; be there when the photos are released... step up to the plate!
After the war, there might be a productive use for publishing these photos; right now the only use for these photos is to incite violence against Americans.
War is not pretty, war is not fair. War is not sanitary, War sucks. And BTW, we TOOK the first punch. We had more objectives than WMDs when we went into Iraq.
If you think you have all the answers, look at the things the new President has stuck with that were going to be changed once he got in office. I think, to his credit, he saw things from a new perspective once he was privy to more info and decided the info he was basing his proposed ideas/changes upon was incomplete.
Just my 3 cents' worth.
Mike

the difference between americans and terrorists is that they are willing to resort to immoral tactics and we, supposedly, are not. while anger may leave us inclined to use torture, if we do, we become no better than they are.

I believe we are able to fight with those immoral standards too.. the only problem is, we do it in this country to our own people...

[SOAPBOX]
Any more it just seems all everyone wants to do is war with each other, and make each other take up our beliefs...

I'm not a religious person, but any more.. it does seem like the meek are ruling my life, and the lives of others that try to stand up and say something in a little bit different way...

[/SOAPBOX]

I am in a difficult position, as a naturalized citizen I swore to honour and defend the Constitution and I do not give my word lightly. I do not subscribe to torture and we are a signatory to the Geneva Convention. I realize that various administrations have thrown the 4th and 6th Ammendments in the trash, what with no-knock warrents and wire taps, but I have spoken out against that many times and will continue to do so.

On the other hand I was not joking in another thread about use of the Cobalt bomb. I do not see any 'innocents' amongst those savages, the women become suicide bombers, and the children will grow up to be no different than their parents. Even among themselves they show hatred, Shia have hated Sunni for 700 years, that is all their 'religion' teaches -hate.

Some argue that this is not what the Q'uran teaches but where were their voices when they hung a young woman because she was raped. Where were the voices on 9/11, Hamas was dancing in the streets.

Sorry, but they are capable of any vile act and the world would be a better place without them.

As far as becoming no better than they are, since when are we better than they are? We believe differently than they do, but that doesn't make us better than they are.

These concepts all sound good, but when thousands of innocent victims' lives are at stake, in the immediate since, I would find it immoral to let them die for an ideal of "become no better than they are."

This whole torture issue is so much larger than the poetic ideals we swallow. We need to play first person with it... look your child in the eye and say, "I can't condone waterboarding that man who knows how to save your life because I would be no better than him. I love you. I'll miss you."

Ha, I see mention of the 'tea party' now there was a scam. The settlers asked the homeland to send troops to fight the indians, then balked at paying the bill.

Mind you I do agree that the general they sent would have had difficulty locating his gluteous maximus with both hands and a flashlight.

so if i believed that satan was the supreme ruler, believed in ritualistic human sacrifice, and believed that rape, murder, and torture was good and just, you would be no better than i?

so you could look your child in the eye and say, "you are no better than the terrorists who flew those planes into the world trade center. it's okay to violate a treaty our country signed prohibiting torture, because your life is far more important than doing what is fair and just."?

dude.....

So waterboarding a man, or 100 men, is the same thing as killing 3000 unarmed innocent people. I don't understand how the two are the same. I would much rather meet my maker knowing I waterboarded a terrorist, instead of meeting him knowing I killed 1000s of innocent men women and children, by burning them with jet fuel. This is the trouble with the PC liberal folks. They never want to talk about specific actions, but rather look at mystical broad "ideas". Let's have a discussion comparing the Taloban (spelling?) male, to the American family man. Then tell me again how we are no better than they are.:(

i did not say that.

and i would rather meet him knowing i did neither.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the cliche about becoming no better than they are is over-used and under-evaluated. I, in no way, am OK with what they do. They are wrong in their methods of trying to make change. However, many of the same people that talk about how wrong torture is, will also call others arrogant for feeling "better" than those being tortured, and they'll turn around and use the cliche "we become no better than they are."
Just an observation on my part.

And I COULD look my child in the eye and say "you ARE better than someone who will kill thousands of innocents." To water-board someone to get life saving information from them, that they otherwise refuse to divulge, is fair and just.

BTW-
Great discussion here. I'm glad it's staying civil. This could really be a flash point conversation. It is well worth the energy of discussion and reflection.
Thanks all for your input and opinions.
Mike

The problem with torture is that the victim will tell you whatever he thinks will make the torture stop if he/she knows nothing. On the other hand if they really do know something do you honestly think that some fanatic who thinks suicide bombing is a grand gesture is going to divulge anything?

I have to agree, and therein lies one of the problems; is it info just to stop the torture, or is it reliable. I think the only semblance of an answer is to use torture only in cases in which the "torturee" has the info needed beyond a shadow of a doubt, and it should only be administered by trained individuals with the goal of extracting the info. Not the perfect solution, but not a perfect problem either. No easy answer here.

Controversial Point: Using survivable pain or discomfort to save lives sounds like a fair trade-off to me.

C'mon, guys. EVERY nation uses or has used torture. Even the ones who sanctimoniously say they don't. Do you think for one minute that the fact that WE didn't/don't/won't would have any bearing whatsoever on what or how our enemies would treat captured American soldiers? Personally, I'd think if we made a lot of noise about how we DON'T torture would probably increase the likelihood our guys WILL be tortured...

Torture
 

Personally, I don't believe in torture.

Then again, if I thought the gentleman in front of me had information which would save the lives of thousands of people, or even my comrades, I'd jerk a slapper out of my hip pocket and beat that SOB until I got the answers I wanted. I would NOT want the knowledge that I did not do everything in my power on my concience.

Last time I looked, we were at war. And the people that we're dealing don't play by the Geneva Convention.

Never was a fan of the ends justifying the means, but there is a time and place for everything. Except maybe the fillet knife.

Chas

Very well said

Uhh-huh. My point exactly. Another thing- After 9/11, we had all these images of these jackasses dancing in the streets w/glee over that, I would have been sorely tempted to give 'em something to dance about-Something that would still be smoldering now, 8 years later. The only thing those jokers understand is being hit harder than they just hit you.

QFT.;)

And if that doesn't work, it just means it wasn't a hard enough hit.

okay, okay, i've reconsidered...

nancy pelosi should be waterboarded.

Hell yeh!:p

Two words - sodium pentothal (sp?)

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. Why is it now ok?