Actual Armed Citizens
 

I realized that some of you don't have a personal picture of where a gun fits in self-defense. And I dare you to read all these and not feel relieved for the victims. REAL victims - REAL crime. Not a mental incapacity due to their politics.

NOTE TO DAVE: Read the 2 incidents that happened at CHURCH. I did not dig those out specially for you.. ;)

I know these are old -- I clipped them back when I was on another board. But the series is still published monthly. Also note that these are just from a couple months in 1995 and 1996. They represent 100s of THOUSANDS of documented deterrent efforts of normal citizens to crime.. :cool:

************************************************** ********

An attack in a Big Coppit Key, Florida, apartment turned
into a free-for-all after the assailant's hammer broke as he
struck a sleeping man in the head. The victim and his
girlfriend awoke and began struggling with the intruder, who
then retreated to a bathroom where he locked the door. A
houseguest, who had been sleeping on the couch, was awakened
by the commotion, grabbed his host's firearm and kicked in the
bathroom door. He held the suspect for the police. (The Lower
Keys Barometer, Big Pine Key, FL, 7/13/95)


Knocked to the floor of his Corinth, Mississippi, home by
a knife-wielding attacker and told that he was about to be
killed, the 80-year-old man offered his money and car keys to
the thug in hopes of appeasing him. It was to no avail,
however, as the assailant forced the man to a bedroom and
again informed him he was about to die. When his tormentor
momentarily left the room, the elderly man took his only
chance for survival. Grabbing his .38, he charged into the
hall and loosed two rounds at his attacker, who immediately
fled the home. (The Northeast Mississippi Daily Journal,
Tupelo, MS, 9/26/95)

The justice system had failed to protect Wichita, Kansas,
resident Carla Grayson from a violent ex-boyfriend. After three
years of physical abuse, 19 arrest warrants (all of which went
ignored by her tormentor as he repeatedly neglected to appear in
court), and the filing of no-contact orders, Grayson put an end
to the situation. When the abuser burst into her home, she shot
him dead. No charges were filed. (The Eagle, Wichita, KS,
12/17/95)

A masked housebreaker almost pondered a bit too long as he
stared down the barrel of Marsha Beatty's 9 mm. The criminal, one
of a gang of four, burst into the bedroom of her Fort Wayne,
Indiana, home, but Beatty grabbed his Tec-9 and stuck her own
autoloader between his eyes, ordering him to drop the pistol.
When he hesitated, the householder announced, "All right, I'm
going to kill you." That halted his indecision and he ran,
pursued by Beatty and her roommate, who had taken up her own 9
mm. "When they saw two women with guns, they ran," Beatty said
later. (The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, IN, 12/6/95)

Enid, Oklahoma, resident Anthony Martin first heard his
doorbell ring, then heard the sound of somebody kicking in his
back door. Martin grabbed his shotgun and went to investigate,
meeting two juveniles in his hallway. Martin held the
housebreakers, one of them armed with a big knife, for police,
but before they could arrive, one of them fled. The remaining
suspect was taken into custody and his accomplice was arrested a
short time later. (The News & Eagle, Enid, OK, 11/30/95)

"Even the Lord's house isn't holy anymore for these people.
If they're crazy enough to do something like this to a holy
place, there's no telling what they'd do," said Knoxville,
Tennessee, pastor Ted Padgett after using a handgun to capture a
man burglarizing the church office. Alerted by a church
custodian, Rev. Padgett retrieved his .22 from the trunk of his
car and entered the church where he came face to face with the
stunned intruder, a parolee. He then stood the criminal against a
wall and patted him down as the two waited for police. (The
News-Sentinel, Knoxville, TN, 11/30/95)

When a young Prather, California, woman ran to a local
church for protection after being threatened by a violent family
member, the pastor unhesitatingly offered her sanctuary. When the
woman's tormentor arrived with a firearm at the pastor's door, he
exchanged words with the minister and shot him in the hand.
Wounded, the pastor slammed the door shut. His assailant managed
to kick it open, but not before the pastor was able to retrieve
his own firearm. Forced to defend himself, the pastor fired a
single point-blank shot, killing his attacker. (The Mountain
Press, Prather, CA, 12/13/95)

A prison minister from Little Rock, Arkansas, Jack Seaver
was used to dealing with tough men. So when one of three teenaged
bandits turned angrily toward Seaver after robbing him in his
home and approached with knife in hand, the minister understood
he had to defend himself. Quickly, he grabbed his .22-caliber
rifle and began firing, striking his aggressor. Police later
arrested the wounded suspect and one of his accomplices. "I
wasn't going to shoot anybody at all until I felt threatened,"
the minister said. (The Democrat-Gazette, Little Rock, AR,
1/6/96)

Two would-be armed robbers found that a real .357 trumps a
BB gun every time when they tried to hit a Fort Wayne, Indiana,
grocery store. Assistant manager Shaun Imbody quickly identified
the criminals' phony armament and ordered, "Put down your toy,
the game is over." State police, staking the business out,
immediately entered the store and arrested the pair. A police
official noted that Imbody's knowledge of guns and quick action
saved the police a nighttime chase of the two crooks. (The
Journal Gazette, Fort Wayne, IN, 1/1/96)

Pistol in hand, Vu Vinh Vuong dashed from the kitchen of his
family's Savannah Georgia, restaurant at the sound of his
mother's screams. Encountering an armed bandit clad in a red ski
mask in the dining room, Vuong opened fire, hitting his assailant
and sending him running. The injured suspect was arrested minutes
later. Vuong's father, Do, had decided to purchase the pistol
after a previous robbery left both father and son, then unarmed,
seriously wounded by gunfire. (The News-Press, Savannah, GA,
1/22/96)

"You can't even feel safe in your own neighborhood," says
Sondra Evelyn Kinnett of Annapolis, Maryland. Kinnett's home was
broken into by a man who lives only a few blocks away. Fortunately,
her son, Michael Strissel, was there when it happened. Awakened by
the burglar's footsteps, Strissel grabbed his shotgun, confronted
the criminal as he hid in a bedroom, and held him at gunpoint until
police arrived. (The Capital, Annapolis, MD, 10/14/94)

JoEllen Hammersley almost became a cop 20 years ago, and maybe
she missed her calling. Hammersley was pulling up to a bank in East
Chicago, Indiana, when she heard screams and saw a man run off with
a woman 's purse. Without hesitation, Hammersley retrieved her .32
from her purse and gave pursuit. With the help of a bystander, she
caught the thief and held him at gunpoint for police. Hammersley
received a Citizens Award from the mayor for her action. The local
police chief remarked: "It's people like Mrs. Hammersley who make
my job a lot easier." (The Times, Munster, IN, 9/29/94)

One moment it was a routine morning at Gregory Morris's
Inglewood, California, furniture store. The next moment it was
"like one of them shoot'em-up movies." Morris and an employee fired
at least 20 shots defending their lives against an armed robber who
threatened to kill them. He fired 13 times. "I'm on the phone with
911 and I'm screaming for help," says Morris. "There's bullets all
over the place. It's like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop." The battle
ended with the thug prone with a bullet through his cheek. Morris
and his employee were unharmed. Police say the criminal had served
less than three months of a two-year prison sentence for robbery.
(The Daily Breeze, Los Angeles, CA, 8/27/94)

Jack Parker's parents have lived in the same Little Rock house
for 30 years. But the neighborhood has deteriorated so much that
Parker fears for their safety and often stays with them at night.
When the family dog began barking at 1 a.m., Parker grabbed a
pistol. Finding an intruder behind the house, Parker yelled at him
and was answered by a gunshot. He shot back, hitting and killing
him. Police say no charges will be filed against Parker. (Arkansas
Democrat Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 9/22/94)

On his final run of the night, Rochester, New York, pizza
deliveryman Michael Vaccaro was set upon by a group of five to
seven men. One of them shoved a gun in Vaccaro's face, while
another took him in a chokehold. Vaccaro was able to free himself
from the stranglehold, pull his gun and shoot the man holding a gun
on him. At the sound of shots, the gang fled, stealing Vaccaro's
car. The wounded suspect was apprehended and faces multiple
charges.(Democrat and Chronicle, Rochester, NY, 10/9/94)

When Louis Simoni walked out of a Rialto, California,
restaurant and into the parking lot, he had no idea there were two
men inside his car. As Simoni approached, one of the thieves gunned
the engine and tried to back over him. That's when Simoni pulled
his handgun and shot the driver, killing him. Simoni was not
charged in the shooting. (The Sun, San Bernardino, CA, 10/3/94)

After a man pounded on her door, cut the electric, telephone
and alarm system lines to her house and launched several bricks
through her windows, 61-year-old Annie Holt decided she'd had
enough. With her .22 derringer in hand, the Nashville resident
repeatedly warned her harasser to stop trying to force entry or be
shot. He didn't stop, so Holt finally shot and killed him. Police
did not expect charges to be filed against Holt. (The Tennessean,
Nashville, TN, 10/10/94)

A wheelchair-bound 71-year-old Henrico County, Virginia, woman
proved too tough for the likes of a local burglar. Lillian Allen,
who keeps a .32 under her pillow, wheeled herself into the bedroom
when she saw a criminal armed with a tire iron enter her home
through a window. After she fired on the intruder, he fled out the
front door. The doughty grandmother says crime won't run her out of
her neighborhood. "As long as I have the gun, I feel secure with
that," she said. (Times- Dispatch, Richmond, VA, 10/18/94)
The American Rifleman, March 1995

Thank You. Interesting accounts and I am sure there are more. As I am sure someone else could find plenty of articles telling of accidental firearm deaths as well. We do live in a large country of over three hundred million after all.

A story come to mind from one of those "Hidden Camera" shows on t.v.....

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;

A man wearing a ski mask walks into a convenience store, points his gun at the elderly woman behind the counter, and tells her "Open up the register and give me all of the money!"

She replies, "I'm not giving you a damn thing."

He says, "Give me the money, or I'll kill you."

She replies, "My husbands dead, half of my friends are dead, and my kids never visit me. All I've got is this lousy job. So go ahead and shoot me, I don't care."

He stepped back, shook his head and walked back out the door.

Dave

Whatever works right? But don't try that misery and guilt thing unless you're a certified Jewish Mother in Law...

I've heard about that.....You have my sympathies.....

Dave

LMAO!

Flac, those stories, they MUST be in a different country, because there's no violent crime here....

I'll have to copy some out of the American Rifleman, they happen every day.

As far as accidental shootings, I'd like to see some committed by CCW permit holders, not 'at home' accidents, as that doesn't apply.

Pete

Pete:

I've only seen a couple stories like that in actual local newspapers. They are always buried on the obituary page.. And the larger papers and TV news don't usually replay those stories culled from the 'burbs. (although in Tenn, I occasionally see on TV, some sheriff congratulating a citizen for apprehending a perp). Pisses me off that most people don't get a daily dose of this... When it's so easy to find dozens of these nationwide every month.

These numbers below are also interesting clip from my political vault.. IT's old so the link might not work, but DOJ keeps running tabs on self-defense. (Numbers are about 1/2 of ALL self-defense with guns, because only about 1/2 are reported (study from More Guns - Less Crime) and that means that the deterrent figures (without actual use of the gun) are MUCH higher than the numbers below. (no discharge, no police report).


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt

About three-fourths of the victims who used firearms for
self-defense did so during a crime of violence, 1987-92

Average annual number of victimizations
in which victims used firearms to defend
themselves or their property
________________________________________

The 3 columns below are Total, Attacked Offender, Threatened Offender
________________________________________

All crimes 82,500 30,600 51,900
Total violent crime 62,200 25,500 36,700

With injury 12,100 7,300 4,900
Without injury 50,000 18,200 31,800

Theft, burglary,
motor vehicle theft 20,300 5,100 15,200

Remembering I come from a country where with extraordinarily few exceptions, anyone caught carrying a loaded gun in a public place would face a serious prison sentence, assuming it could be enforced, what would happen if right across all States the only people allowed to carry guns were law enforcers trained in the use of hand-guns?

It would be a more peaceful place. The reason why the police in the UK rarely carried arms was the law. As you noted caught with a firearm would get you prison time. Caught with a firearm whilst commiting a crime got you real prison time. Most crooks were too smart to do that. Now that we have terrorists it is probably a different story.

Law abiding people would lose their guns and the law breakers would have a field day. They already face prison if using a gun during a crime.

Indeed. And most concealed carry states do require some training.

Pete

And most high schools offer driver's education but wrecks still occur.

It annoys me when folks equate guns with Patriotism or use it as a metallic phallus -- I find both groups to be radical wingnuts -- but a properly trained and rational human with a gun doesn't offend me.

The intellectually actionable queries are what is a "gun," what "training" mandates, and whether John Q. is "rational."

2A types are going to claim that the latter doesn't/shouldn't apply but it already does in the form of convicted felons. Their argument SHOULD be that the average citizen is far superior then most convicted felons...

Personally, I don't think so...

Hmmm... "metallic phallus" err uhh "actionable queries" ; now where did I put that dictionary? ;)

Welcome, Nationalist. Drop by the Introductions forum and say Hi. You'll love us once you get to know us. In the meantime, we'll bludgeon you like a red-headed stepchild.:D

CombWork:

Although I'm adamant about keeping this right, I am ALL FOR proficiency and training. You can't mandate anything expensive or long since that works against low income folks in the bad parts of town. But to get a CCW permit, I believe you should show proof of basic proficiency. Ranges and Clubs could cover MOST of this..

I also believe that purchasers of guns who are Insta-Checked, should have crime-free, drug-free records and be mentally clear. I just have serious doubts about how accurate any Federally managed database can be. Would like to see a third party set-up (maybe GSE) to handle this..

It's not just the ownership and carry of guns in your country that is the issue. It's also the laws concerning self-defense of self and property that worry me. Apparently, you can't even carry a stick legally there anymore and can do jail time for physically resisting a burglar..

Nationalist: Don't know if JUST a dictionary will help. We make up our own "strategeries" as we go..

Zeke: Glad you brought up driver training.. My beef is that having a driver's license says NOTHING about driving proficiency. It's that way with MOST licensing. I just want to know that a CCW cares enough about his/her RIGHT to go to class one time..

The same thing that has happened with the wingnut predictions that Obama was the Racist Totalitarian So(c)ialist anti-Christ and that all of the white folk were going to end up slaves or in concentration camps..........:rolleyes:

A bunch of noisy, half-baked, fear driven nonsense, and then----nothing.

Dave

True enough.
 

[QUOTE=flacaltenn;64338]CombWork:


It's not just the ownership and carry of guns in your country that is the issue. It's also the laws concerning self-defense of self and property that worry me. Apparently, you can't even carry a stick legally there anymore and can do jail time for physically resisting a burglar.

All true. The European Human Rights Act although set up with good intentions (probably) has been used by "human rights" Lawyers to get home owners put away and compensation for the would be burglar. Carry a stick? You must be mad; in the wrong hands anything bigger than a twig is a lethal weapon. The A12 road into Colchester England was lined with beautiful mature horse chestnut trees. They'd lined the approach to Colchester before the first motorised carriage puttered down it. Now they've all be cut down by the Council because "a falling chestnut could cause injury to anyone beneath it". I'm not making this up..........

Blue, so true, we thought we were getting an anticolonialist and bam! he bombs Libya.

The lefts argument regarding gun control sounds like: American citizens are children and can't be trusted with guns. Heck all their decisions are suspect, so, we'll make'em for them :p

Comb, used to be pretty darn similar here. Now many states have enacted 'Castle' laws. Under the old setup you had to prove you were threatened. Now, the burden of proof is on the intruder. HUGE difference.

Pete

So we insist on proper training and demonstration of proficiency. Should that also include a psychiatic evaluation? I knew several local folks who were very proficient with a sidearm, borderline fruitcakes also.

That change makes sense. If I read you right, the 'Castle' law means that the onus is on the intruder to prove they were not a threat. Very difficult proving a negative, especially before an unsympathetic jury.

I've been to the USA three times; once on business and twice on holiday. Maybe this is an exaggeration, or perhaps specific to Florida but I was told that unless it was an emergency, like your wife going into labor, you just don't walk up to a strangers front door in the dark.

CombWork:

Fascinating chestnut story.. It goes to the heart of the "nanny" state philosophy and that is to attempt to remove ALL risks from ALL human endevours. Without realizing that risk is just part of the higher mammalian calculus for progress. Without risk existing, we'd be incapable of making educated judgements.

I wonder if Colbert know about the chesnut story.. Hmmmmm.

So you say say some folks got struck by lightening, some folks around here it happened to too.

this is the real role of guns in this country

Except our Constitution requires us to assume innocence, until the accused is proven guilty. It also guarantees the accused "due process". This is the conundrum with the "Castle Law" that keeps other states from adopting it. It allows the citizen to instantly become judge, jury and executioner. Many believe it to be unconstitutional. A political hot potato here, because the same folks who favor the "Castle Laws" usually also fancy themselves to be "constitutionalists" (Well, only when it suits them, I'd have to say.:rolleyes:).


The bolded sentence, I believe, would be an exaggeration. Most likely you would simply be ignored if the homeowner doesn't want to answer.

The Chestnut Tree thing? Yeah, that's absurd.

Dave

The Constitution applies to the government. So if someone swings on me, and I hit them back, I've deprived them of 'due process'?? Lordy lordy.

Comb, like I suspect anywhere there's places you don't want to go in the daytime! But if you came to my door at night and knocked I would answer, however suspiciously :)

Pete

NO! The constitution applies to everyone.

Ever served on jury duty, Pete? You are reminded a zillion times that you are to assume innocence. Even when you invoke the "Castle Law", the courts and therefore "the government", are going to get involved. I guarantee, if you shoot someone for whatever reason there will be a trial.

Watch what happens if the court decides you did not have just cause, even in your "Castle Law" state.

Dave

So, what about my example?

And dead men tell no tales. Remember, the burden of proof is on THEM. And they are in my house without permission.

Also, because of Castle law they can't even sue over civil rights ;)

Pete

Not so. In most states, it was with the shooter. Nowadays, it's shifting to the prosecutor in many states, including Ohio. In no state that I'm aware of does it rest with the intruder.

The Castle laws shift the burden of proof proof from the homeowner to the intruder. I believe the phrase is the homeowner has a 'presumption of innocence'.

So it's NOT 'bulletproof' :) [edit: what I mean is, the intruder can make a case]

Pete

BlueStreak:

Naw.. Not really.. Law enforcement OFTEN decides not to prosecute in straight cases of self-defense. They'll investigate, but charges need not and are not often filed.. In fact, many citizens get an "atta boy" from the city..

NoOneReal:
I know those are anectodal stories, I've got a thousand more if you enjoyed them. Pete could kick in a couple thousand I bet from his "reading material". But the crux of the matter are the DOJ numbers that I posted. Did you see them???

The 86,000 defenses with a gun are only the police reported ones. Easily more than twice that per year according to sources. MANY more incidents didn't even result in a shot fired. So the score really is:

Guns Used in defense of self and property: 172,000/year
Struck and Killed by Lightning in the US: ~65/year (source below)
Struck by Lightning in the US: 172/year (my guess from deaths)

So officially NoOneReal -- Protecting yourself, your family, and others with a gun happens roughly a 1000 times more often..


http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/jeh5_05_45-50.pdf

Guys:

There was just this week one HORRENDOUS case of gun defense gone bad. A pharmacist witnessed 2 young men holding guns to the heads of his employees. Went to get his gun and took a couple shots at the robbers..

One hit the floor, the other fled. The pharmacist dragged him off security camera and pumped 5 more rounds into the guy off camera. Told police he was STILL threatened by the perp. Prosecution and jury didn't buy it. Pharmacist is now serving time.

JUSTLY serving time IMO.. HOWEVER--- I've got at least 5 stories I can remember where trained officers ended up unloading into disabled perps. (Bart Station cop, NYC "amadillo??", ect) So this ain't just a matter of training and discipline. It's primal instinct when you're defending stuff from criminals..

It's not pretty, but neither is a wheel-chair bound granny with a bashed in head...

Interesting stuff. I think some of this comes from gun owners who don't really know how lethal guns are and how big of a mess a gunshot wound makes. They watch TV and see good guys unloading magazine after magazine on the bad guys and think that sort of thing is necessary to incapacitate somebody.

Having killed more than my share of deer with all sorts of weapons (modern firearm, blackpowder and bow), the mess made by a high velocity jacketed hollow-point style bullet is devastating. It doesn't drill pretty little holes in things. All three of my kids have been shooting guns since before they were 10 years old and the two boys each got their first deer at 10 and 12, respectively. Field dressing a deer that has been shot in the chest by a modern firearm (even a bow or muzzleloader, but less so) gives one an appreciation of just how deadly these things are. Once you see it, you don't need many more gun safety lectures.

As noted earlier in this thread, I own a dozen or so guns of all varieties and have owned guns for over 40 years (since my adolescence ), and simply don't view them as tools for personal defense (and I've lived within the city limits of both New Orleans and DC, both cities with relatively high crime rates). I'm an NRA Distinguished Expert with smallbore, taught rifle and shotgun shooting merit badges to Boy Scouts, and NRA Hunter Safety to adults and just can't conceive of carrying a concealed handgun. What spooks me out even worse is that most people than do conceal carry have far, far less experience with firearms than I do.

Personally, I'd rather hand a crook my wallet all wrapped up with a pretty pink bow than shoot him for trying to take it.

Yeah, same reason cops sometimes go off the edge and beat people.

Just last year? iirc a pharmacist was robbed, but he was a (limping from purple heart) vet - pulled a gun, shot the guy, he fell below the counter where the camera couldn't see him.

The pharma pulled his OTHER gun, a Taurus Judge, walked slowly around the counter (since he was standing, he was on camera) and squeezed off a few more rounds.

He wasn't arrested.

Pete

I was wrong, he was tried.... and found guilty. We must be talking abou the same shooting.

Pete

There's the whole Joe Horn thing, the grand jury threw it out.

Pete

Pete:

You'd do that out of humane reasons when hunting.. But I don't think the Pharma guy was trying to be humane. You're supposed to use the weapon to CONTROL the situation, not to enhance the violence. BTW: Cartoons are EXCELLENT today sir....

FinnBow:

My dad ran a Civitan Junior Rifle League with the help of NRA and actually the DOD!

It'll make lefty heads explode when I tell them we got our ammunition nearly for free from the Federal Govt! After all the DOD wants young men who know how to shoot.
I helped coach the team for awhile. Got stopped in Alabama (because my hair was shoulder length, I'm sure) at 18 yrs old. In the tailgate of the family wagon I had 12 match rifles and over 800 rounds of ammo. The good sheriff took at look at the medals and the jackets and we had an EXCELLENT meeting of the minds. I was shaking the whole time tho..

I'd never apply for CCW either.. I don't even want to carry a cell phone most days.. What a freaking pain.. And it's not all that sexy either.. You lose a lot of lefty women that way I'm told..

One talking head said perhaps it was because of his military experience...

My dad got his ccw, he doesn't even own a gun! His reason? 'They might make it harder to get one but they'd have a hard time taking them away from those who already have one.'

I might get mine but have no real desire to carry one. I hate the thought of shooting someone.

If you meet a lefty woman you could always say 'I got it after being beaten trying to protect a woman from 100 biker rapists...

or perhaps say, in case you see someone beating my favorite baby seal, with a lead filled snowshoe :D

Pete

so you believe this trash

what can i say?

TN was a good move for you

http://www.politicalchat.org/showthread.php?t=105

read post 8

THis is gonna be a hard response for me because I have to acknowledge both Pete and NoOneReal...

Pete:

Will you be my PERMANENT wingman??? Funniest thing I've heard this week and that INCLUDES Colbert!

Seriously NoOneReal:

I am so sorry about your losses and your experience. I truly am.

Any experience I've had with guns has been the opposite. First thoughts are ALWAYS how important this right was to my father and how much joy he created by coaching a teen-age team of kids who weren't varsity anything, but could win medals in shooting competitions..

you see flac i can live with guns as sport and an instrument for bonding

it's when the truth about them is distorted that I have a problem

btw in addition to what I listed in that post my home was broken into twice and my cars three times

never once did i feel i needed a gun to protect either however

i felt i needed flood lights and car alarms at the time