Speaking of tax cheats
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/bu...leonhardt.html

We hear so much blather about people who allegedly pay no taxes try this on for size.:rolleyes:

They're selling dreams, Rob. You can't tax peoples' dreams. That would be un-American.

All the answers to this problem are in that article..

1) US corporate rates are higher than most other nations. Collections are lower due to "special interest" loopholes that have been granted.

2) Talking about how much the US govt gets from Ford (for example) does not paint the entire corporate tax picture. You have to EXCUSE the taxes paid to OTHER countries by US corporations to ensure competitiveness. So the total actual tax burden of a US corp with large overseas divisions is much larger than the NY Times will admit.

If I had a dime for everytime I've heard the phrase "I'd rather pay my lawyer (or CPA) than Uncle Sam", I'd be rich. Of course, the amounts paid to these folks is simply a cost of doing business, or a "hidden tax" depending on your perspective. If we'd simplify the tax code, we'd put a whole slew of lawyers, CPA's, and accounting firms out of business.

So we waffle around the mulberry bush, anyone care to address the real issue? People are not the only ones not paying INCOME taxes.

OK MerryLander::

I'll play..

If GE had not transformed itself into the Jolly Green Giant to suck up all those subsidies, they would have paid A LOT of taxes this year? Want to rescind those Green tax credits? The eco-left figured those would all go to the bearded overall types working on manure piles and wooden windmills in their yard. That was the expectation wasn't it?

They do say the average fortune 500 company pays over 30%.

Pete

I knew it.. I just knew it.. You are a famous character Pete..

Did you get into copyright problems with the Lincoln/Mercury cat?

:)

Yes and no. They didn't care about the copyright, but the new and improved Ford Company of Fine Cars, worried about the 50+% of car buyers now female, thought a howling cougar sent the wrong message. They wanted me to change it to Mary T Moores' little kitten but not being a man of the new millennium I refused.

Then I heard the black helecopters.... that's when I realised my gerbil had ratted me out.

Pete

Ah yes - They do say, and another pig flew by.:D

Flack maybe if GE had not shut down every operation in Ohio and shipped all the work to China I might just manage a tear or two on their behalf.

Who is "they", Fox? So far my research has shown that in '02-'04 the average tax rate for the profitable Fortune 500 companies was 17.2%.

Regards,

D-Ray

Sorry D, I wasn't clear. From the linked article:

"Companies that pay relatively high rates tend to be those that are not expanding rapidly and that are not as ingenious as G.E., at least on taxes. The average total tax rate for the 500 companies over the last five years — again, including federal, state, local and foreign corporate taxes — was 32.8 percent. Among those paying more than the average were Exxon Mobil, FedEx, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Starbucks, Wal-Mart and Walt Disney."

Ah and I see that it includes foreign taxes. Wonder what that was, average?

Pete

C'Mon MerryLander:

We BOTH want to do something about this.. Should the govt rescind all those Green Tax Credits so that G.E. pays more of its taxes? Should Obama have appointed their CEO as a special consultant?

No tears required.. In fact, I own a HUGE chunk of GE stock.. And I'm embarrassed about the phoney baloney Green Giant act..

I bristle at these repeated claims that those of us who care about the environment actually have a secret agenda to funnel money to this or that entity. If GE truly made significant advancements in technologies that will reduce the environmental harm of human activities, then I'd say they earned their tax breaks. I've no idea what they actually did. Hopefully they really did accomplish something meaningful.

I don't want to drag the thread off-topic, but I really don't understand why environmentalism has become such a polarizing political issue. Perhaps it's simply a reflection of our times, where EVERYTHING has to be black or white, for or against, and a tool with which to bash one's opponent.

You know this is really funny as hell, the same bunch who piss and moan about some individuals not paying INCOME taxes (becsuae they don't earn enough). Get their knickers in an almighty twist if anyone suggest that corporate America is f**king the dog and selling the pups.:p

Interestingly, While Exxon claimed in 2007 that it paid a 47% tax rate on before tax profits, none of that was paid to the IRS. That's right. Exxon's federal tax rate was a big zero.

For one thing, Exxon was counting the taxes that customers paid at the pump as part of their taxes, when they didn't pay a dime of them.

"Exxon Mobil's accounting methods mask its relatively low effective tax rate. According to CNN Money the $3.1 billion in taxes the company claims to have paid since January 2011 includes both federal and state gasoline taxes—that are really paid by drivers—as well as employee payroll taxes."

http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...5/tax_man.html

Regards,

D-Ray

You got that right. Food stamps going to a single mother with three kids is a bloody outrage. An oil executive jacking up gas prices, then retiring six months later with a 1/2 billion dollar pension package is just peachy. (Is that WWJD?:rolleyes:)

Dave

JonL et al:

Let me make this simple and clear. I started an entire thread about corporate subsidies going to GE and made perfectly clear that I OPPOSE all those Green credits that resulted in no taxes.. What I see you trying to do here is to have it both ways. To support those Green tax credits to GE, but chastise GE for not paying "it's fair share".. At least that's the clear hypocrisy of the lefty leadership who crafted those credits and then pretend to be shocked at the result.

so when some others on the board say:
... I surely hope they're not talking me, because I've been entirely clear and consistent on where I stand.

And yes I've spent hundreds of hours debating energy/enviroment issues on the boards with some of the most dedicated eco-leftists you'll ever meet. That is actually my favorite topic. And I know that MOST of these folks sincerely believed that eco subsidies handed out by Washington would go to yet to be founded new progressive companies that operated like perfect little non-profits. Not an ounce of realism in ANY of their expectations about where those subsidies would end up..

Black or White --- For or Against??? Yep.. Something like corporate welfare can't be good in some cases and bad in others IF ---- you believe it corrupts the system. I believe it corrupts the system. Furthermore I believe it's beyond the expertise and even the charter of the Feds to picking technology or market winners..

Social welfare however, can be more of a good in some cases, bad in others if you're honest about human nature.

I doubt that GE avoided paying taxes solely - or even largely - due to "Green credits." I'm not going to do the research. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

If GE's tax burden was reduced somewhat as an incentive to actually introduce products that actually made a commensurate improvement in environmental impact, I don't think that's a bad thing. If GE's tax burden was reduced to zero because they invented some impractical technology that will never exist outside the laboratory, that's a bad thing.

I don't think it's "corporate welfare" to use tax policy to impel a company to do things that are in the public interest that they would not otherwise do because it is not in their near-term financial interest.

Maybe I'm not the lockstep lefty you fantasize about. We've all got opinions of our own. I'm not trying to have it both ways. I am able to see shades of gray and nuance in life. I think that's a trait the right in general tends to lack.

+1 . . . .

Trying to game the tax system is American as apple pie, chevy, and high incarceration rates :)

Wait till we attempt to reform the tax code again. EVERYONE will be screaming. Flat tax anyone?

Jon, I love the outdoors, I grew up camping, all primitive, and skiing/hiking in the winter. When folks see my occasional pond in the backyard and say 'when are you going to fix that flooding' I explain that I like it (I really do), and it's good for the enviroment. I also do not use fertilizer.

But there is a big problem in helping the greening. It's all about costs. I could write a few pages, but it ends up cost/benifit. God help the poor. And while I believe many rank and file 'greenies' truly mean well the power elite is happy to take that power and use it as they see fit. It's a sticky wicket. Did someone say, what about space colonisation? :D

It is the only sustainable way...

Pete

PS no fair calling us lockstep righties. Stop prejudging me! :)

PS Right, just about the same time as you guys start saying the same crap about lefties.:D

I love when people think they are environmentalists because they like the outdoors.

Some of my best friends are.... Republicans!

I thought conservatives were all in favor of small business? Small business is supposedly what drives job creation and technological innovation, right? I guess it's ok unless it happens to be small businesses that are involved in finding solutions to our environmental problems, then those small businesses are just a bunch of aging hippies playing in the mud, and not even trying to make a profit.

Sheesh. Maybe you should give some serious thought to how much you view things as preconceived stereotypes instead of actually looking at their merits.

LOL! [re: best friends are Reps..]

But what do you DO? By keeping the low areas in my yard (about a third of my backyard)(I do keep my backyard natural as well) and recycling cars I do far more than most greenies I know. Drive a Prius? Batteries and resource use are great for the enviroment.

I DO have open fires, fart methane, and exhale CO2. Oh well :)

Pete

At 4.5 acres you better believe we keep our backyard natural, we can't afford to muck with it. Try to imagine how much grass seed or fertilizer it would take. Local oldtimers told me to just keep mowing it and I would have grass.

Re: some of my friends - sure but would you want your daughter to marry one?

Lol x2! But righties don't usually believe in open marriages either ;)

If you mow it, you'll get something that LOOKS like grass :)

Pete

What do I DO? I live in a 250 sq ft apartment. I drive a 24 year old diesel car, and only about 5000 miles/year. I live close to town and walk to do my errands as much as possible. I eat a vegetarian diet (with some fish, eggs, and a bit of dairy). I purchase mostly organic produce, locally grown when I can get it. I have in the past grown most of my own produce and would do so again if I had a suitable place for a garden. My boat is wind powered. Those are the biggest ways I minimize my personal environmental footprint. My work involves developing a highly efficient internal combustion engine. I try to subtly encourage others to be more environmentally sensitive without being pedantic, preachy, or "holier than thou." I do this by explaining why I make the choices I do, and don't ever imply that someone - on a personal level - ought to do the same. That's up to them. I do believe however that a more concerted effort should be made on a national level to educate people and steer our society towards a more sustainable future. On a global level, overpopulation is a huge issue that gets virtually no discussion at all.

Perception trumps reality.:p

Dave

JonL:

In no particular order.. Stereotypes -- General stereotypes are unavoidable. Try Republican, Green, Democrat, Communist, Libertarian for example. As long as the CONTEXT in which they are used are supported by facts, it's fair game. So now -- I'll support my statement..

We are at a point in the "alternate energy" game where "small business" is only relevent at the retail and service level. Meaning that you don't get GigaWatts of alternate energy designed, produced, sold, installed, serviced by "small" anything. Yes for residential installations there are local small businesses involved. There might even be "small" businesses subcontracted to mow the grass around the turbine farm. But the expectations by the Greens that federal subsidies and tax breaks would end up at the mom/pop level were REALLY naive.

Which BTW -- If you read the Green Party literature or visit any of the eco-left sights, you'll find the premise that "big" anything is bad (unsustainable -- a word that should take a break now). And that paint and tires and turnips should ALL be produced at the local level.. Little tire factories, little hydroelectric dams, little farms, little cute computer factories. Little, local is sustainable. BullShit. The enviromental damage caused by distributioning the manufacture and production of all types of goods would result in horrendous misuse of land, water, resources. Because of all we know about scale of production. The eco-left can get really jazzed about stuff like 'microdams' producing enough energy for a house or a couple homes without ever considering how scalable or relevent that concept is. It would be selfish and enviromentally disasterous to scale that up to 100 'microdams' on the same tributary - but yet they're jazzed.

Same thing with being solar OFF GRID. Where a 1/2 a ton of lead acid batteries in the basement get you thru the night. Really the pinnacle of green engineering there. The ideal we ALL should strive for? Let's put 20% of the nation off-grid and watch the toxic waste from battery recycling develop..

No -- not quite ALL aging hippies in the mud. Just naive and not very helpful to the development of plentiful, cheap, clean energy and a better earth for everybody..

YET -- WAIT -- I consider myself an ARDENT enviromentalist. Go figure....

Whoa, my ears are scorched :) I'm used to dealing with fair-weather greenies :D

I thought I was living lean in a thousand sf! (2 people) Where do you put your lps? I love organic food but can't always afford it. Is your car a VW? I can't afford to live close(r) to work, I'm about 7 miles away and can hardly afford that place, and this whole area is quite walking/biking unfriendly - I'm afraid biking to work here is a death wish. I've thought about it...

But I'd probably have a heart attack if I didn't get run over 1st lol.

I'm interested in your work regarding engines, I think that's smart money for the payoff. I'm picturing the 1.3L 4 cyl in my old Metro. If it could develop say 120-130 HP instead of 78 it would have many more applications (it was a great little engine)(it was also almost dangerous in short highway merges even with a 5 speed). Do you have any suggestions regarding existing engines? Also, I've heard that the folks at MIT are developing an inject that prevents predetonation, that radically increases compression - is that real?

Forgive my rambling. We are dead on regarding overpopulation :)

Pete

LOL! For some reason my brains' saying stuff like reality trumps Trump :)

Pete

JonL:

I'm not at war with you.. It's just that I'm witnessing the pillaging of the REAL enviromental movement by extremely bad Federal policy. Policies that end up feeding "special interests" that neither of us like.. And seeing a company like GE use happy "little" dancing pachyderms to prove their greeness was just a little too much in your face. And I'm tired of mindless boobs like Al Gore representing the movement with mindless statements about geothermal resources having "millions of degrees" of heat available in a very green way. The reality is that large geothermal is an extremely dirty mining operation that produces millions of tons of toxic and corrosive gas and water. And further, the wells and plumbing burn out reguarly because they are NOT immediately "renewable". And YET -- you'll find the naive eco-left listing geothermal on their list of APPROVED green and renewable and sustainable "alternatives"..

Gore just apologized for his ethanol stand -- didn't he?

As far as GE is concerned (disclaimer I actually own a TON of GE) --- I'll go fetch for you. But be a nice kid and go grab me a beer...

GE claimed aa 2010 tax benefit of $3.2B on worldwide profits of $14.2B, $5.1B of which came from US operations. Not only did they pay ZERO, but their enhanced tax and lobby group built up about an EXCESS of $2.3B as a trophy. So they would STILL pay essentially no taxes even if their US profits went in excess of $40B!!!!

Most of that booty comes from green credits. Credits that get just from producing product that's ALREADY in production like wind turbines, gas turbines, washing machines and the like. Here's an example..

http://www.uncwlibertarians.com/2011...x-credits.html

So sorry to dash your hope that this went to anything INNOVATIVE or important, but that's how it goes for almost ALL their tax credits. Politicians used the Green Agenda as an EXCUSE to create these credits. (maybe naive enough to think that they'd actually affect the enviroment with the cash) And GE metamorphed into the jolly jungle dancing pachyderm to suck it all up..

1) You don't make fundamental engineering or enviromental impact by paying companies to produce green products that they would sell anyway.

2) You don't really lower the cost of something by subsidizing it at either the company or consumer level. All you do is waste capital that SHOULD go into R&D. (i.e. California has thrown MILLIONs of $$ they don't have into building the base for electric cars over 15 years or so with almost NOTHING to show for it. Subsidizing at the consumer level just raises the consumer price.)

3) See quote below about the NEGATIVE consequences of letting the FEDS play kingmaker by handing out dough.. Any benefits have to weighed against the reality of govt/corporate collusion..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/bu...nted=1&_r=2&hp

How sweet is that? Lobbyists on their knees.. Rangel gets a school named after him...

I know it may be alien to you... But consumers aren't stupid sheep. They'll figure it out. Let the capital go into R&D and product development and see how many MORE good ecological solutions we get.

Whilst I was fetching stuff for JonL -- I ran into this entry on Google under [GE "tax credits", ect]..

Hey Hey Hey -- At least get my name right.. Be careful what we say on the boards. Google is watching us..

Pete:

Generally yep..

Right now, our property is absolutely crawling with 17 yr cicadas. They are draped from the house eaves like Xmas lights. If I mowed right now -- I'd get something that looked like beef stew...

Protein :)

We get those 17 year bugs every once in a while.

Pete

Are you a fisherman? We had our big 17 yr. cicada thing about 5-6 years ago. They were dropping into the water along the shoreline of the local reservoir and carp (and other fish) were sucking them down from the water's surface. My son and I went out with fly rods and caught a bunch of large carp on dry flies. Flyfishing for carp??? You betcha.;)

And probably the CIA the NSA and the FBI.:D

Hmmm cicada chum available every 17 yrs.. Carp are feisty enough for sport fishing..

EVERYthing is eating them. I've got a few chipmunks living in some stonework and there's piles of body parts where I see them munching. My daughters' turtles go out in the yard and just binge on cicadas.
I've been relocating garter snakes back into the woods and all of them are bulging like they've swallowed cocktail wienies..

It's gonna be an ugly weekend for yardwork..

Haven't seen any 'round here.

Dave