The N word.
 

OK, I know this is edgy and I mean no insult to anyone, but has nigger always been seen as an insulting word? Mark Twain was an educated man, and used it a lot in his stories about life on the Mississippi, most notably "The Adventurers of Tom Sawyer" and "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", yet in one of these books he describes Jim the nigger as "the finest man he had ever met". Reprints of both books have changed the N word to black man.

If a learned man did not consider it a term of abuse then, when did it become one? In 1939 Agatha Christie wrote a book called "10 little niggers". In England in 1939 it was just a line in a nursery rhyme; I doubt very much that she saw it as insulting. When the book was re-published, the title was changed to "10 little Indians". If it's printed again, what can they call it that wouldn't be seen as insulting to someone?

I'm curious about the use of words and how they change. In 18th century London a lot of lanes and alleyways, especially round the docks had names related to their use; "Candlemakers Row" and so on. Some years back there was a live radio programme on BBC Radio 4 about the use of words and how they change. One of the guests said that on pre-Victorian maps, "Gropecunt Alley" was an alley where Sailors could find 'ladies of leisure'. Being live it couldn't be edited out, but the silence of the other guests was deafening...........

From Wiki:

By the 1900s, nigger had become a pejorative word. In its stead, the term colored became the mainstream alternative to negro and its derived terms. Abolitionists in Boston, Massachusetts, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored."[9] Established as mainstream American English usage, the word colored features in the organizational title of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, reflecting the members’ racial identity preference at the 1909 foundation. In the Southern United States, the local American English dialect changes the pronunciation of negro to nigra. Linguistically, in developing American English, in the early editions of A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language (1806), lexicographer Noah Webster suggested the neger new spelling in place of negro.[10]

By the late 1960s, the social progress achieved in US society, by such as the Black Civil Rights Movement (1955–68), had legitimized the racial identity word black as mainstream American English usage to denote black-skinned Americans of African ancestry. In the event, the “political militant” connotations of black displaced it in favor of the compound blanket term African American. Moreover, as a compound word, African American resembles the vogue word Afro-American, an early-1970s popular usage. Contemporaneously black Americans use the word nigger, often spelled in eye dialect as nigga and niggah, without irony, to either neutral effect or as a sign of solidarity.

Sounds about right to me.

Yes
 

Me too. As Mark Twain published his book in the late 19th century, I guess he just used a word that was common parlance and not seen by everyone as insulting. As for Agatha Christie, in the 1930's there were few black people living in England, so I guess she just picked a word out of a nursery rhyme.

Seems to me that using a phrase like "the 'N' word" is a cop-out and a chickenshit way of saying something. Everybody knows what you are substituting and when you say "the 'N' word" everybody knows exactly what you mean. The freaking word exists and there are times when the use is proper... quotes for example. If an insensitive dolt uses the word "nigger" then when he/she is quoted that word should be used. Flip side, it is a hurtful word used in the wrong context and should never be used as a weapon because of the negative effects that it carries. Changing Mark Twain is adulterating art and is ridiculous. We could just as well slim down Leonardo's "Madonna" because she, after all, is a little plump according to today's standards.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

I tend to agree (but your analogy, not so much).;)

Tes and no.
 

It's just a word yes, but as this is primarily a U.S. site, I was not sure how nigger in the title of a post would go down. I was concerned that some people might take offense so strongly that they'd not read the post.

"Two countries divided by a common language". Who said that?

As far as the thread title, you did the right thing.

Reminds me of the local story about the Optimist Club returning from a meeting.

They stopped at a restaurant and ordered a meal. When it came time for "Nigger Dave" (the only black member) to order, he asked the waitress "'Cuse me miss, but do you serve niggers in here?"

After she managed to stammer out a "Yes Sir, we do", Dave flashed her a big grin and said, "Then I'll take one medium rare."

But we Americans have become too sensitive for low brow humor of this sort.

Chas

That was Winston Churchill "The Americans and the British, two friendly peoples seperated by a common language."

I was watching Rick Steves, the travel show guy, doing a documentary on how they produce his shows. The comment was that they have to do filming in galleries when they are closed (and pay handsomely). They noted that some art and statues that have been on display in Europe they do not film because of American mores. This prudishness probably dates from the Pilgrims, yet it seems you can't go three minutes in a movie without four lettered words - go figure.

I'm not really offended by the word in the context of a quote, but as a practice I don't even quote it. That's just like the the position that I don't begrudge anyone using the f-bomb, but I generally choose not to repeat it. If everyone knows what you are referring to when you use the terms "N-word" or "F-bomb" it doesn't seem necessary to me to repeat it.

With respect to Mark Twain's use of the term, I believe he was aware of the derogatory nature of the term. He used it for the impact and for the contrast between what the word stands for and the quality of the character who bears that name - and in essence overcomes the title given him.

Regards,

D-Ray

That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. The way he writes using the language of the day then creeps up behind and twists it.............

It was certainly a descriptive. Look, even negro is something of an insult now. Right now in Ohio there's a big push to rename the department of mental retardation.

Flip side though, I'm at my friends, talking on the front porch, obviously getting ready to leave. A black friend, a neighbor of the other friend, yells from down the street: 'Pete! Pete! You ain't leavin till you try some of my nigger ribs!'

He was a good barbeque chef. Cracks me up to this day lol.

This following attachment has met with uproarious approval from black friends too:


.

I'm surprised no one on the right has claimed that their 1st Amendment rights are being violated. After all, what right does anyone have to tell them what they can say? Where's Rand Paul when you need him? (Sarcasm.)

Dave

Mark Twain.

"Injun Joe."

Where's the outrage? :)

Isn't that your job? We have been waiting. :D

They may be too busy watching the Washington Redskins?:rolleyes:

as i recall the word "nigger" comes from welsh coal miners and was used to describe the "worthless tailings" left after mining.

when it became used in the british army im not sure but its origin is not from the south US

"Nigger" is simply a word, and by itself quite benign. It is only in the context it is used that gives it meaning.

And before Finn starts on me again, I'll cut to the chase.

If you don't want to be offended, don't go through life with a chip on your shoulder. The vast majority of people will never offend you on purpose.

And for the one's who offer the personal insult, don't take it personal...it's not worth it.

If you walk away, they will eventually realize that they've only embarrassed themselves.

Chas

It's easier yet when one insults himself - "dumb-ass hillbilly" "rednecks from Bugtussel". It disarms the potential verbal attacker and leaves him vulnerable to the, until then concealed, logical argument. I know how you run Chas.:p

Regards,

D-Ray

Don, I am a dumb assed hillbilly from Bugtussell.

But thanks for the compliment.

Chas

Who cares? What does this prove? The word "fuck" doesn't have it's roots in America either. Try standing up in church and shouting it as loud as you can one time.......................................

Just refrain from using the word in public. What is so hard about that?

Dave

Or the Cleveland Indians, or 8 million other ones. But in a way it's a compliment this pollack/czech/limey thinks, it brings up toughness, courage, etc - fierceness.

I can see the insulting nature of some of the caractures though.

Blue, wait till the allpowerful government declares the Bible hate speech, we'll see who thinks what about the 1st amendment :p

Btw, as you can see changing the 'er' to 'a' makes it ok :)

Seriously though.

Pete

Oh, please. Now "they" are out to seize your Bible?

(And, BTW. I knew it. I knew it was only a matter of time.:p)

Dave

Apparently, in the beginning, God was under age and hadnt created clothes yet, so Genesis is being considered child pornography. (Skins reference. If you dont get it, dont worry you're probably too old to worry about it ;))

Don't laugh Karl, apparently the network that ran the American verision forgot that showing nudity of underage kids is a federal offense.

I told my momma she needed to get rid of my baby pictures!!!

Chas

I think we all could be considered that!!

Why should it only apply to certain people?

Doesnt that word mean someone who isnt working??

I think people who whine about being shamed for using racially charged language are just whiny wannabe bigots who need to grow up. They're just as bad as the overly sensitive.

"Why can he say nigger and I can't? Boo Hooooooooooo..........."

Who cares? Is it really all that important to you to go around using racially inflammatory words?

I suppose you think it is a violation of your rights to be told it's obscene to jerk off on a busy street corner? "Ooooo, what's the matter? My public masturbation offends you?"

Good grief! Some things are just a matter of common decency. Get over it.

There is no doubt the term was a pejorative and always has been so regarding social status. That it is also perceived an insult should be understood.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Where did you come up with an idea like that?

The "N word" is a reference to skin color. The polite term used to be Negro which is the Spanish word for black. The "N word" may be a corruption of that or perhaps a corruption of the French word for black, negre. (The pronunciation of negre is closer.)

I don't really know or care at what point in the history of the word it came to be thought of and began to be used offensively. The only thing I care about id that it is so considered and so used now and the people who use it succeed in labeling themselves more than they insult the target.

What about Thomas Wolfe? Did he use this word? I had all his novels, the play "Manor House" and the letters in German translation and LOVED all his books. Until I noticed that he was an antisemit and a racist.

When Louie CK is on his game, there aren't many funnier humans.

See here,


http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_e...-brief-history

If someone thinks up odd personal meanings for words, such as 'nigger' means 'out-of-work,' it's likely to pose difficulties for communication. Moreover, since the word used as a racial slur is considered a sharp and shameful-to-use insult, one may suspect the one proposing such a redefinition is seeking to duck condemnation, thus allowing use of the word in a double sense. That is, to fellow bigots it signals one thing, while that meaning becomes deniable to critics. This is an example of passive aggression--transgressing behind a pretense of innocence.

Quite possibly but, these days, when an author uses the word, it's usually to put it in a character's mouth to show us something less than positive the author wants to reveal about him or her.

That's in modern times, of course. In a previous era, Mark Twain used the term liberally but it was revelatory of the culture he wrote about, not about a particilar character. In "Huckleberry Finn", Twain created the character of Jim, a runaway slave and very much the hero of certain parts of the book but he was described as a nigger throughout it.

All words mean what the user intends in the user's head, and what those who hear or read think in their heads. When these are the same, accurate communication has occurred. However, there are lots of ways for inaccuracy to happen.

The most benign meaning I know of for 'nigger,' historically, would be something like 'black person, therefore a racially inferior person whose exploitation by whites is supported and encouraged, and who may actually be treated with savage hostility without consequence.' Mark Twain's writing documents a time when the word was in open use, with this meaning accepted and unchallenged in a large majority of minds.

I fear that Wolfe, who died in 1938, used this word.

I was very familiar with this author and so I know that his racism and antisemitism was in a way "guileless", (German term: "arglos") but this guilelessness is what made at last possible so much pain and sorrow some 80 years ago.

Exactly.

No, bigots, you can't just go around demeaning people at will so quit your whining.

They're trying to promote the idea that the bigot is a "victim". That in shaming him, we are maliciously violating his right to be an a-hole and thus....."....hate America and everything it stands for. ".

Oh, but make fun of their religion or their politics and see who's offended now. Oh, that's right; It's not "offense" when they have their hissy fits.:rolleyes:

See how THAT works?