Reparations anyone?
 

First sorry if tackled somewhere else.
For I missed it if so.

The topic of Reparation to ancestors of former slaves.

My feeling is sure something needs to be done for the actions of the past.

There are a few countries and families fortunes made off their labor and suffering. The countries and fortunes are still around today and should be held responsible.

Now as to just the how?

Paying out a one time payment or similar program would not help all effected today by inequality. Feel some programs to help all segments of our society. Bring up all schools to a equal standing and proper funding. Programs to develop economically depressed areas. By the companies who benefited from others. Affordable housing with ownership.

Give people a good education, job and homes would go along way to build wealth for future generations. Give a sense of pride and inclusion.

That is a more permanent solution it would seem. Rather then a check and done.

For when one thinks about inequality it effects all races and ethnic groups. So to keep from further unrest and what about me? Doing a program to help all seems to me the path forward.


For the people are here to stay.

Best to include them in the American dream.

Redistribute the ridiculously huge fortunes. Your ideas about building a more equal society are great. Bunch more so*ialism in the mix, but keep capitalism going too (with a lot more responsibility enforced). Germany and the Scandinavians are the model.

Regarding the huge fortunes, has everyone seen this:
Wealth Shown to Scale

The sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of lives to free the slaves is more than reparations enough.

If they want more than that, they can knock on the doors of those that enslaved them in the first place - the Democrats. For all intents and purposes, the civil war was not north vs south. It was Republican vs Democrat.

First paragraph reflects my sentiments.

In 1860 the Democratic party split at the Wigwam. Blaming the Civil War on the Democrats because the party split into N/S rump parties doesn't really fly though because you do not know how the election would have turned out if it hadn't split. It was Slaveocracy hot heads who caused this split and based on your logic they caused the Civil War.

Name magic. Modern Democrats share nothing with the pre-civil war party of 160 years ago..

Redistribute! Could do a world-transforming program and still leave the 400 richest Americans with 1.5 billion each.

Good point.

No wonder we are tearing down all their statues. :)

Regardin redistribution as you are presenting it. the first step, of course, will be to gut the constitution. Good luck with that.

Reparations always has been and always will be a non-starter. It's just a fun thing to talk about. It sounds interesting until you get down to the mechanics of it. Then the lunacy becomes apparent.

If it would have all been taxed properly, as it was pre-Reagan , we wouldn't need to be having this discussion. The post WWII to JFK term tax rates were the highest in history and arguably the best economy our country ever saw.

Sorry to drift off topic, just a timing thing.

It sounds like you don't think modern democrats should be held accountable for what Democrats did 160 years ago. It begs the question, then: Why would you be in favor of the ones today paying reparations?

Won't speak for DQ, but generally speaking it's WAG, the kind the lets one feel better about oneself.

What's WAG?

The country failed after the civil war to redistribute wealth from those who benefited from or were former slave owners. Just freeing them and leaving adrift was just plain wrong.

Sherman attempted to fulfill this to a degree with the forty acres and a mule. Was reversed and there we have it.
Living with the results to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_acres_and_a_mule

The act of helping all would address the Chinese builders of the railroads, Native Americans and all other used and then abandoned after the need for them was gone.

This country is full of families and companies who stole and continue to steal the wealth of the nation to this day. I'm just saying much like the first modern democracy did when silver was discovered in Athens.
Did they let a few get rich?
NO!
They used it for the better good of all, in the building of a navy to protect their democracy. No, here the finding of a resource in the USA will make a company and families rich. Not distributed as a benefit for the citizenry. Oil gas gold timber the list is long of the robbing of the country's wealth.


Trust me be glad right now it is equality at the center of the argument. By ignoring the suffering or just making little of it will not make it go away. Rather increase the solution's pain once it gets to a point where it is beyond cool heads deciding the answers.

The definition I go with is idle, indiscreet chatter. ;)

I don't recall saying I was in favor of paying reparations. While some still reap tangible benefits from slavery, while others have inherited the harm of it, I think we'd have much more of a unified and happy society if all on the bottom were better-cared-for, with investments and a robust safety net. Capital must be for everyone in a healthy capitalist economy.

The redistribution program outlined on the wealth-to-scale presentation is mainly good for getting an appreciation of what sort of concentration now exists, and the scale of possible alternatives. I would favor some different investments from their sample program. One line item would be big endowments on the state and local level to replace, for example, property tax funding of schools.

Usual expansion is 'wild ass guess.' Means an estimate even more poorly-based than usual.

Or in increase in the marginal tax rate on the extremely wealthy? :D

White American Guilt

That would be IIC.

Not according to Webster.

Well, your direct reply (first in line) to the OP's post about reparations in a thread titled Reparations began thus: Pretty sure most would see this as being in favor. If not, what were you talking about?

The funding of schools by property taxes may be the root of the inequality of class rooms.
Well to do areas have more to draw from. A combining of funds or some other way of collecting support is needed.

Throwing money without a solution to equality will not fix the problem. I never owned a slave or had past family members involved. Looking at it that way still does not fix the problem with the distribution of wealth. The old give a hand up not a hand out seems to be a solution that all should agree with.
Unless it is competition that make one afraid. Afraid with competition you may well suffer.
Equality is OK as long as you still win way of thinking?
If equality is obtained there will be those who loose and those who gain. The solution needs to as fair and understanding.
To try and make everybody win something.

You were referencing a factor impacting sound reinforcement decision?

Added bold to the your post I quoted. Hope this helps clear up your confusion. :)

I first thought of saying 'Absolutely,' but a setup like we had, say, 10 years ago might be advantageous. The tilt to the rich now is altogether too extreme, but with a little less of one, we can look at it as a national savings program--provided we go back and do a redistribution program every 20 years or so, before the thing gets too out of hand....

Nah, I don't think I'm serious. Too much of the money means the rich have too much of the power. Very dangerous for democracy--we are far from out of the woods right now. IF we can manage it, it's back to the early 50's marginal tax rates and robust inheritance taxes.

I agree that when the country's tax rate was higher it seemed lifestyles were better. This trickle down method not working out so well as a whole.
Works great if at the top. Not much reaching the bottom let alone the middle....

Programs to address racial bias should be aimed at giving NO ONE a material advantage for being a certain race. Robust and pervasive laws against economic discrimination in any context should be enforced. People get onboard with racial animosity mainly because they benefit economically and socially by discrimination.

There's an exercise that is done sometimes by equality lecturers--they will ask a White audience to raise their hand if they'd be will to change and be Black in our society. Generally they get exactly zero hands. This means everyone KNOWS Blacks are disadvantaged, however else they feel about things.

I'd like to find a way to get to maybe half the hands going up.

Redistribution of wealth, in a race-neutral manner, is not really a racial equality thing. I just tangented to it since reparations are generally seen as wealth redistribution targeted to Blacks and others.

Ask the men how many would rather be women, and the women how many would rather be men. Youll get a similar response. It's not that they don't want to be black. It's that they like who they are and they have spent their entire life adapting to who they are.

Half the hands going up shows strong dissatisfaction in half of the lives if they want something else.

And the people I've known don't get onboard with racial animosity mainly because they benefit economically and socially by discrimination. Rather, they see a certain race constantly acting up on television and in youtube videos and wonder, "is there something fundamentally wrong with these people?"

Dead serious.

Therein lies the root of the problem.
Seeing it only as "these people"!

We need to move beyond us and them, to a simple us!

Don't hold your breath. The us/them dynamic is genetic and it's in the code of many other species.

This country is willing to and does give support to other countries yearly. To help with their needs with tax payer funds and surplus food.
What about our citizens?
This lift yourself up from the boot straps all sounds good. Just what is available for the youth in the inner cities or Indian Reservations for a couple of examples. The singling out of just one group to help will not fix the problems of inequality or unequal advantages.
Rather giving a real choice, a chance at improving one lot in life.
Education an opportunities!

There are infinite areas that can be addressed, but where does one start and end?
You can say blacks are disadvantaged because of where they live, but how do you resolve that? Is it better for them to try and better themselves and move or stay and try to better the neighborhood? There are many who have sacrificed their own potential and stayed to try and better the lives of the local kids. They've helped a few kids rise up and make their way out of the neighborhood, but I don't think they have changed the culture a whole lot.

If they could get a decent education they can get scholarships and go to college like anyone else, but even with money for schools it is hard to focus on school when the whole community is run by gangs and thugs. Many fathers in prison, not just because of racial bias, but also because of gang indoctrination and drug addiction makes it hard to focus on school when you are trying to take care of your home and family at the same time. A lot of money and many people smarter than me have been thrown at this situation and it still exists to a heavy degree in many black communities today. What is the answer? Housing is so expensive in nearby areas that they can't move close, even middle class people can't afford to buy a house. I think that if a lot of them could just get a glimmer of confidence that they may possibly be able to have even a small part of "the American dream" they may actually strive for it, but I believe most of them are convinced it is impossible so why go through the effort.

I am sure there is an answer, but I don't even know where to begin.

Here is the really scary part: Have you ever heard of the book, "The Bell Curve"? Some tough questions are presented by the information in that book. Here's a "twenty years later" rundown: https://www.aei.org/economics/bell-c...harles-murray/

The book may have been somewhat prophetic.

It may just be as simple as inclusion. This will take many years to fulfill equality. Years ago women's sports as an example needed help towards equity. Steps are still need but advances have been made.

We can't just put our hands up saying it can't be fixed. Not without trying.

The country put off the hard tough decisions for later. That can not go on forever. Like I stated before the people effected are not going away. The inequalities are growing everyday for segments of our society. We don't want it to get to the historical solution of pitchforks and touches now do we?

I feel that given the opportunity of a good paying job and building of wealth. The problems with gangs and crime would be lessened significantly. When you have something to loose you fight for it. It is when one feels left out and hopeless, with nothing to loose the problems begin.

True, but the point is somehow we need to get good paying jobs where, so far anyway, it doesn't look like they want to put them.

There is more then a few jobs that left the country over the years. Be very interesting to see if any of the companies involved in these said jobs have a history in their past with the exploitation and enrichment of our natural resources. Both of a human or material in nature.

So they could now be held accountable and fund programs. To bring good paying industry back home.

There is ways of improving our society. It is just the pain in the who what where and when. This is a rich country with so much potential. Greed and envy are powerful caustic emotions that left to fester unchecked. Can and will have ill effects all of ours futures.

Thanks for the easter egg.

If seeing people acting up, without pre-existing bias, triggerred animosity, I'd expect much more widespread condemnation of the armed 'no-mask, open the economy' protestors.

And a nuance: the question was not 'would you rather be black.' The question was 'would you be willing to be black.'

Or ask one self, would you be uncomfortable the only or of the few (insert, race gender ethnicity) in a crowd of those who are different?

Then try to imagine how people faced with this everyday now must truly feel. Add to this the sense in lacking of a voice or power when faced with this everyday. When in speaking up, ignored and placated as not a big deal.

...like a white guy talking about black race issues? ;)

Every person's story is unique, and race is only part of the formula that makes it that way. In my company we have two black managers in the IT department and one black lady that cleans the restrooms. Everybody listen's to the two black guys but nobody listens to the cleaning lady regarding IT.

But then, maybe now I'm being sexist rather than racist? :D

BTW, if those two guys started speaking up about race issues, I guarantee you people would start ignoring and placating them. And respect for them would drop like a prom dress.

N.I., just because of my race, it will not blind to another sufferings. The statement of mine actually was first made by a friend of mine who yes, happens to be Black.

Does one have to have cancer in order to see issues associated with the illness? Or by seeing the suffering in others gain an understanding of the pain and suffering. I would think an caring intelligent open minded person would and could have a feeling for, not a complete one, yet one still the same.

You and I are in complete agreement on the facet you mention. Sadly, it seems that the race of the speaker matters if they are talking about the situation another "race" finds itself in and the listener does not like what they are saying. Sometimes they can even be of the same race and if the listener doesn't like what they are saying they just call them an Uncle Tom.