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Writewing 01-19-2010 04:38 PM
And yet Bush was President, live in the past or step into the here and now with sometihng more than a guess of what may have happened and tired old bitching about an Election almost a decade ago.

noonereal 01-19-2010 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 16345)
Your joking right ?

Even Gore would have been forced by the masses to declare war after 911.
I am sure we would have gone to Afghanistan and done a much better job as we would never have taken our recourses or attention away to invade a contained country, Iraq.

noonereal 01-19-2010 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16351)
And yet Bush was President, live in the past or step into the here and now with sometihng more than a guess of what may have happened and tired old bitching about an Election almost a decade ago.
Isn't the reluctance to step into the future a hallmark of the right?

Good god man, do you ever speak with consistence?

Writewing 01-19-2010 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noonereal (Post 16352)
I am sure we would have gone to Afghanistan and done a much better job as we would never have taken our recourses or attention away to invade a contained country, Iraq.
Maybe but it sure was sweet to see Saddam go to the gallows:D

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16351)
And yet Bush was President, live in the past or step into the here and now with sometihng more than a guess of what may have happened and tired old bitching about an Election almost a decade ago.
“Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.”

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16354)
Maybe but it sure was sweet to see Saddam go to the gallows:D
How many American lives and trillions of dollars was it worth? I'm sure a mother who lost her son in Iraq would be consoled by the fact that it amused you.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:02 PM
Thats nice, its a cheapshot but par for your way of thought.
When freedom is fully realized in Iraq the citizens of that country and the entire world will be a better place and that makes sacrifice not only worth it but also a necessity.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie (Post 16355)
“Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.”
And soon we will see if your party not only lectures with those words but also puts them to practice.

Grumpy 01-19-2010 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16357)
Thats nice, its a cheapshot but par for your way of thought.
When freedom is fully realized in Iraq the citizens of that country and the entire world will be a better place and that makes sacrifice not only worth it but also a necessity.

There will never, ever, be freedom in that part of the world.

One they don't want it.

Two their religion, for the most part forbids it.

Three its be going on for thousands of years and will continue long after we are gone.

Grumpy 01-19-2010 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie (Post 16348)
There's no way to know, of course, but I suspect there would have been some action in Afghanistan. Not sure what it would have looked like. Perhaps we'd have gone in and gotten Bin Laden and called it a day. I am virtually certain that we would *not* have gotten into the mess in Iraq. Clinton was big on cruise missles and limited engagement. No way to know what Gore would have done, but I suspect it would have been more limited in scope.

So, who knows? Monday morning quarterbacking and all. But we may have been in and out with Afghanistan and not gone to Iraq at all. How many trillions would that have saved?
Clinton, the slimy bastard was smarter then I gave credit. He knew he should have finished what bush's father should have. Instead he let it all simmer over and become the next guys problem.

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16357)
When freedom is fully realized in Iraq the citizens of that country and the entire world will be a better place and that makes sacrifice not only worth it but also a necessity.
When freedom is fully realized in Iraq? Are you serious? Hell, even Bush knew that was just a line.

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 16360)
Clinton, the slimy bastard was smarter then I gave credit. He knew he should have finished what bush's father should have. Instead he let it all simmer over and become the next guys problem.
This is where these discussions get pointless. On the previous page you asked a question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 16360)
Ok, so say a dem was in office then. Do you really think it would be much different ?
I tried to answer as best I could. Given that Gore worked with Clinton for a good while it seemed a logical place to look for a reasonably probably answer. So I answered your question. Never does anyone ever post "that's a good point, you're probably right". Just change the subject.

So, again, the answer to your question is almost certainly "yes". I think things would very probably be different.

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16351)
And yet Bush was President, live in the past or step into the here and now with sometihng more than a guess of what may have happened and tired old bitching about an Election almost a decade ago.
Another perfect example. You were the one who was trying to tell me what happened in 2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16351)
The view is nice from the cheapseats and hindsight is 20/20, but the office of President isnt anyones to "give" it is earned by the Electoral College.
When I correct you (and I can only assume you have no issue with the information I provided since you don't address it) you quip some crap about living in the past. Well why did you bring it up then?

It's pointless to even take the time to post direct responses.

HatchetJack 01-19-2010 05:25 PM
Freedom for us comes at a high price. Lots of good men went down so we can do
what we do. We should be more thankful to our leaders and our fallen
brothers for allowing us to live without oppresion. We must continue to fight
the spread of camelism. I Wonder what our fallen soldiers would say to anti
war types that have no clue why their lives are as good as they are. It would
not be a pretty sight.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 16359)
There will never, ever, be freedom in that part of the world.

One they don't want it.

Two their religion, for the most part forbids it.

Three its be going on for thousands of years and will continue long after we are gone.
So we shouldnt try to give others what we enjoy? So should we try in Haiti?, after all its a mess and likely to remain one and has been for years. Sure they are two very different things but its the idea of wondering do we just sit on our hands or try to do something about it?
I dont agree those in Iraq dont want it, many do and others dont know what it truely is because of the powers that have been in place.
I dont agree also that the religion does not allow it, the perverted interpretation of it does not allow it and we may be able to change that in time. It likely though because if its religion wont ever be a duplicate of our country but it can sure as hell be better than it is now.

djv8ga 01-19-2010 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander (Post 16222)
The problem is simply letting the right get all the press with their buzzwords, you know "death Panels" "Socialism", "Big Government" "Government Takeover" all certified bull manure but not counterd by the left with the truth.

Frankly Brown is enough of a yahoo that should he win he will most likely do more to piss off the independents than he will to win them over to the do nothing party.
Impossible.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie (Post 16363)
Another perfect example. You were the one who was trying to tell me what happened in 2000.



When I correct you (and I can only assume you have no issue with the information I provided since you don't address it) you quip some crap about living in the past. Well why did you bring it up then?

It's pointless to even take the time to post direct responses.
Its obvious you operate under the assumption this sites should revolve around you but there are others here I participate with so remember that in the future, as far as "bringing it up" I started this thread and once again it strays off course and if you stuck to the original topic we wouldnt be waisting time on this.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatchetJack (Post 16364)
Freedom for us comes at a high price. Lots of good men went down so we can do
what we do. We should be more thankful to our leaders and our fallen
brothers for allowing us to live without oppresion. We must continue to fight
the spread of camelism. I Wonder what our fallen soldiers would say to anti
war types that have no clue why their lives are as good as they are. It would
not be a pretty sight.
THANK YOU:)

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16365)
So we shouldnt try to give others what we enjoy? So should we try in Haiti?
Give others what we enjoy- you mean spread the wealth around?

Two points- you can't really compare the two. Haiti is a disaster not of their own design. Of course we should try to save the dying after a natural disaster. That has nothing to do with the situation in the Middle-East where factions have been killing each other intentionally for all of recorded history.

Second, this is an ironic statement from someone on the right. I can't recall your position specifically, but this sounds a lot like the kind of thing Democrats say when pushing projects like Health Care. Shoot, what about welfare? Sure, some will abuse it and some may be demotivated to try harder. I don't really buy that, but for the sake of arguement. But some will take advantage of the program, get their lives together and prosper. You can say it's hopeless, but does that mean we shouldn't try to give others what we enjoy?

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16367)
Its obvious you operate under the assumption this sites should revolve around you but there are others here I participate with so remember that in the future, as far as "bringing it up" I started this thread and once again it strays off course and if you stuck to the original topic we wouldnt be waisting time on this.
For Christ sake. Whatever. Why bother to answer?

Fast_Eddie 01-19-2010 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatchetJack (Post 16364)
Freedom for us comes at a high price. Lots of good men went down so we can do
what we do. We should be more thankful to our leaders and our fallen
brothers for allowing us to live without oppresion. We must continue to fight
the spread of camelism. I Wonder what our fallen soldiers would say to anti
war types that have no clue why their lives are as good as they are. It would
not be a pretty sight.
I completely agree with the first part of your post. I'm not sure what "camelism" is other than I assume some kind of deragatory term for people who weren't fortunate enough to be born in the West.

Being against the war in Iraq doesn't make you an "anti-war type". It was a bad call to go there. I do not believe that the war in Iraq as it has been executed is in any way related to my life being as good as it is.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie (Post 16370)
For Christ sake. Whatever. Why bother to answer?
I invite you not to answer, if you going to live in the past with "what ifs" as if this were some Political fantasy league and talk about an Election damn near 10 yrs ago I fully support your choice not to respond. The topic is about today and the future................is that clear?

Boreas 01-19-2010 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doucanoe (Post 16325)
I do also (cap and trade that is).

Being in the housing and commercial construction industry for almost 25 years now, I am very attuned to "green" efforts how many have jumped on board for profit and to conform to regulation. If you could see some of the inner workings of it, I believe you might see a lot of it as a bit of a joke. Be that as it may, jobs are jobs as long as they aren't all just built on the notion of green.

We really need to start to produce a viable product in this country soon or it's going to be government and service related jobs for all of us. If you subscribe any to the notion that government does produce a product as such, we had better start investing in the private sector.

For those of you who say, well, don't just bitch, provide some solutions I give you this...

Maybe a good place to start would be to tax the hell out of corporate entities that wish to produce products overseas and at the same time, wish to bring them back for sale here. At the same time, provide incentives to manufactures that produce a product here for sale here. This would stimulate job growth here by allowing companies who wish to play by the rules the additional capitol to grow and hire.

Maybe thats just a naive approach to things from a guy who likes to cut to the chase :confused: I'm just a guy who would like to get to the heart of the problem (some of it anyway) and deal with it accordingly.

Sorry about the somewhat off topic rant. I just can't help myself :D

RC
Now, see? We do agree sometimes. ;) I agree with everything you said above.

By the way, that idea about penalizing American companies that move offshore and reward those that don't?

John Kerry.

John

John

djv8ga 01-19-2010 05:48 PM
If the right continues to send kids to their death as they have, they will dissolve the Republican party. Dems, Libertarians, and Independents will not put up with it any longer...IMO.

Boreas 01-19-2010 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy (Post 16345)
Your joking right ?

Even Gore would have been forced by the masses to declare war after 911.
Well, Gore might have listened to Richard Clark and might have paid attention to the numerous specific warnings of an impending al Qaeda attack on the US. If he had 9/11 might well have been prevented.

We don't know, of course, but we do know that Bush's negligence made al Qaeda's job a lot easier.

John

noonereal 01-19-2010 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatchetJack (Post 16364)
I Wonder what our fallen soldiers would say to anti
war types that have no clue why their lives are as good as they are. It would
not be a pretty sight.
I think you sell the fallen short by assuming their thoughts to be so one dimentional.

Writewing 01-19-2010 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djv8ga (Post 16374)
If the right continues to send kids to their death as they have, they will dissolve the Republican party. Dems, Libertarians, and independents will not put up with it any longer...IMO.
:confused:

Boreas 01-19-2010 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie (Post 16371)
Being against the war in Iraq doesn't make you an "anti-war type". It was a bad call to go there. I do not believe that the war in Iraq as it has been executed is in any way related to my life being as good as it is.
I would add that being against the decision to go to war in Iraq is in no way the same thing as being "against the troops". Quite the opposite is the case. Rather we are against the senseless waste of our brave young men and women in a futile and illegal military adventure.

John

noonereal 01-19-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 16375)
Well, Gore might have listened to Richard Clark and might have paid attention to the numerous specific warnings of an impending al Qaeda attack on the US. If he had 9/11 might well have been prevented.

We don't know, of course, but we do know that Bush's negligence made al Qaeda's job a lot easier.

John
we also know that Bush bolstered the al Qaeda network by his war on Iraq.
we also know the hierarchy of al Qaeda could have been crushed if he had not let Rumsfeld tell the military how to fight the war.

noonereal 01-19-2010 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16377)
:confused:
I think that is a very introspective post writewing.
You seemed to have captured the essence of your participation here.

noonereal 01-19-2010 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 16378)
I would add that being against the decision to go to war in Iraq is in no way the same thing as being "against the troops". Quite the opposite is the case. Rather we are against the senseless waste of our brave young men and women in a futile and illegal military adventure.

John
This is another of the chicken hawks distortions.

Writewing 01-19-2010 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noonereal (Post 16380)
I think that is a very introspective post writewing.
You seemed to have captured the essence of your participation here.
Yea thats right more of your bullshit personal attacks....dont you get bored with being a one trick pony? The difference between you and me is I participate in debate with attacks on a party and ideology while you simply attack me personally but I assure you that you immature tactics serve nothing but your own ego.

noonereal 01-19-2010 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16382)
Yea thats right more of your bullshit personal attacks....dont you get bored with being a one trick pony? The difference between you and me is I participate in debate with attacks on a party and ideology while you simply attack me personally but I assure you that you immature tactics serve nothing but your own ego.
Only in your mind.

BTW, is there anyone here you are not "sparing" with? :rolleyes:

Twodogs 01-19-2010 06:49 PM
Washington is not listening to the American people. I doubt if this election will change that for the Pelosis and Reids of the party.

Boreas 01-19-2010 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twodogs (Post 16384)
Washington is not listening to the American people. I doubt if this election will change that for the Pelosis and Reids of the party.
Do you think the McConnells and Boehners of the other party are listening?

John

Writewing 01-19-2010 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twodogs (Post 16384)
Washington is not listening to the American people. I doubt if this election will change that for the Pelosis and Reids of the party.
I also doubt that, they have a agenda and damn anyone who gets in their way or doesnt agree with them but they will both likely pay for this arrogance soon enough.

Boreas 01-19-2010 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writewing (Post 16386)
I also doubt that, they have a agenda and damn anyone who gets in their way or doesnt agree with them but they will both likely pay for this arrogance soon enough.
Please tell us in detail what their agenda is and how they plan to implement it.


John

noonereal 01-19-2010 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas (Post 16387)
Please tell us in detail what their agenda is and how they plan to implement it.


John
where is that damn popcorn smiley when you need it? :D

doucanoe 01-19-2010 07:25 PM
Nobody's listening. Some because they have "Bills" to pay and the others are just plain deaf to the people that put them there.

This thread illustrates to me why none of these people can ever get anything accomplished. We can sit and argue the war, medical insurers, pharma. companies and who pissed in who's cornflakes until the cows come home. I love a good debate as much as anyone. I also have many opinions that are similar and sometimes vastly different from the same people here. One thing is true however is that none of it is going to change the past so who gives a rats ass.

I'm starting to believe that they all are two sides of a shitty coin.

Easier said than done, but I say send them all packing and I mean all of them.

RC

noonereal 01-19-2010 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doucanoe (Post 16389)

I'm starting to believe that they all are two sides of a shitty coin.

Easier said than done, but I say send them all packing and I mean all of them.

RC
agree.


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