Once my feeble and weary mind successfully navigated the mouse-in-a-maze-like mental gymnastics required to understand your lawyer-speak..............I'd have to say this is a most excellent post.

Bravo, Counselor!

Dave

Now, that last one was interesting....................

Dave

Pete, you may be smart enough to adjust the press but if they let you do it then every other pressman would feel entitled to do it, regardless of competency. End result is a lot of expensive machinery buggered about.

I've worked many jobs were I kept my own machine running, adjustments, setups, minor repairs....

In union shops you're not allowed to tweak setups because it's someone elses' job. It is (or was anyway, don't know about now) taken very seriously.

Blue, not to make people docile, old King George would've gotten a huge laugh out of that! (Or cry maybe) It's the 'social contract' thing. How's that working out in an athiest society? :p

Jefferson is something of a nut. He has a point though - we are living under a set of rules we had nothing to do with. So how can it be with the 'consent of the governed'?

My last computer crash wiped out my bookmarks. When you look be careful - there are false quotes for it, and there are also false negatives, where some site says a quote is fake just to discredit it. The internet is wonderful :) It's so politically charged.

I'm not going to get in another quote war. The best way is to read what they said. But just the same consider:

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams;

"The Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis and the source of all genuine freedom in government....I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable, in which the principles of Christianity have not a controlling influence." - James Madison;

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports..Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." -George Washington;

"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." -James Madison;

"Every civil government is based upon some religion or philosophy of life. Education in a nation will propagate the religion of that nation. In America, the foundational religion was Christianity. And it was sown in the hearts of Americans through the home and private and public schools for centuries. Our liberty, growth, and prosperity was the result of a Biblical philosophy of life. Our continued freedom and success is dependent on our educating the youth of America in the principles of Christianity." - Noah Webster;

""We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams.

Pete

Hmm, were these the same highly moral christians that gave us the crusades and the inqusition?

No, those were a different bunch of highly moral christians :p

Pete

Nice Christian attitude committing adultery with a slave (which, by the way, was against the law at the time), not to mention that most Christian act of owning other human beings.:eek:

Regards,

D-Ray

Good point.

I thought about it and maybe the concent is considered given when our children are born ( a SSI number is issued at that time).
So we WILLINGLY accept FOR our children all the issues that follow.

Dunno...just saying...;)

See. Very little has changed in the last 240 years. Human nature being the one constant, and all.:p

And, regarding King George, and virtually every other European Monarch;
Weren't they often referred to as "His/Her Christian Majesty" and even considered by some to be descendants of Christ himself by way of "Royal Bloodline"?

IMHO---Organized Religion isn't there to protect anyone from being manipulated. It is manipulation. The earliest form of government. And, if you really think about it,------the tightest. Secular governments can make people fear punishment or death, but how many have people believing they'll suffer eternally it the flaming pits of Hell?

(I can see it now, The POTUS on t.v....."Guys, If you don't use the curly cue light bulb, you will be cast into eternal damnation.")

Most organized religions do contain some awesome and inspiring stuff though, I will give them that. And being familiar with Judeo-Christianity, Hindi and Bhuddism, all three do contain their version of the "social contract" as I think of it. You did touch on something there, Pete.

Dave

Thanks. It appears we've traded in our contract for - nothing.

Better get on those light bulbs :)

Pete

Well, it's a little hard to explain things like old age benefits, social safety nets and the like to infants and fetuses (fetusi?), and obtain their consent to receive a SS number, now isn't it? ;)

All I know is, I've had one since birth and never found it to be an issue at all.
I've been contributing since age 18 and would at least like to get my money back someday. Preferably when I need it most, which I surmise will be after I am too old and crotchety to work anymore.

Dave

So you're holding out until the old part gets here. :D

With respect to your comments on the religions having their own form of social contract - as I have mentioned before, I picked up a book called "The Political Teachings of Jesus," which I have been trying to read, but keep getting distracted by things like a John Lennon biography, a Studs Terkel book on death and dying, and a Mickey Mantle Biography. In any event, the thesis of the book is that the teachings of Jesus, disregarding the religious meaning, provide a pretty good framework for organizing a society. I'll have to get back to you on the author's full development of that thesis.

Finally, as far as the consent of those operating under the social contract - the consent is implied. We live under a social order that restrains violence against one another, that protects one's property, and that operates for the general welfare of the people. We trade unrestrained action for security, and by co-existing in a civil society are presumed to have consented to the obligations of maintaining it.

Regards,

D-Ray

Hmmm... That book sounds interesting, Don.

Exactly, and even with those protections we keep our doors locked 24/7 simply because there are people in this area who get their jollies from breaking in on seniors and beating them to death.

Charming isn't it? Hanging is too good for those idiots.

I had to get my SS number when I got my first job. I hope to be able to afford a decent box and dry cat food with an occassional can of Fancy Feast - if I can even retire.

Socrates did talk about the social contract more or less.

Pete

Probably some idiotic Baboons who are angry because old people are living off of their taxes. Or at least, that's how they see it.................:rolleyes:

Dave

Obviously, the answer to that would be to enable employers find further reductions in labor costs, in conjunction with the stripping away of any "Socialist" safety nets. Thought Bubble---(Hmmm, I wonder how difficult it would be to outsource Petes job? Think of all the my his employer could save!)

Dave

Whooooozipulat teeaky umphuweasits!

Dave

LoL!

I'm pretty outsource proof selling to the construction market. Thank goodness.

I think the right way to fix SS is double or triple the withholding, and let Congress hold on to it till I need it.

Pete

Really? You don't think that could be one through a sales center in New Dehli? You call the sales center, place your order, they send the bill of sale to the warehouse that ships directly to the customer...................

Think of all the money they could save that way.

Measure your head for the paper hat.

Dave

Nah Blue, heck you can hardly count on offshore sales to get your phone right. I'm in a pretty specialized industry.

Imagine someone barely speaking english trying to tell one of your machine operators how to fix one :)

Pete

They just move the machine and the whole factory to where the phone operator is.

And, I really don't think moving your job would be all that hard, if someone really worked at finding a way.

It's that wonderful "innovation" in business that Flac likes to talk about.

Dave

Dave