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  #21  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:37 AM
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Good post Tyler, as a former teacher - I taught software engineers from all over the world - I keep saying get all these alleged experts out of the way and let teachers do what they do best - and that is teach.
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  #22  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:41 AM
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Yes, Tyler. However, you do realize that in the minds of many of our countrymen------It has little to do with the parents (Are you calling them "stupid"?), or the "village" the child was raised in. Every parent is perfectly capable of home schooling, or sending their kids to the finest private school in their state. It's all the teachers fault. Unless, of course that teacher happens to be non-union and private sector, then he/she can do no wrong. And if the school is religion based-----Que up the Chorus of Angels, we've just gone beyond reproach.

Nope. Obviously, the answer lies in cutting pensions and other teacher benefits to fund tax cuts for (some of) the more affluent parents, in other districts, who can easily afford private school anyways.

Dave
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Last edited by BlueStreak; 07-14-2011 at 10:50 AM.
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  #23  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
Good post Tyler, as a former teacher - I taught software engineers from all over the world - I keep saying get all these alleged experts out of the way and let teachers do what they do best - and that is teach.
My father (an art education professor at the time) told me in my pre-service days and still in college that teaching is far too important to be left to the teachers. He was, of course, being cynical and sarcastic.. but it holds.

Tyler
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  #24  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:00 AM
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Good post, Tyler. Your post is demonstrative of the fact that we, as a culture, demand simple answers to complex questions/issues. Come to think of it, the President who passed "No Child Left Behind" was a master of this type of "thinking."
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  #25  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by tybrad View Post
My father (an art education professor at the time) told me in my pre-service days and still in college that teaching is far too important to be left to the teachers. He was, of course, being cynical and sarcastic.. but it holds.

Tyler
Before my last post I was teaching LAN/WAN technologies for a different company. They assigned one of their instructors to teach me how to teach -- one of those 'my way or the highway' idiots. Once I satisfied his assinine ideas and went on my own I got excellent reviews by the students and never looked back, but as the song says I did it my way.

When I was still with Bell Canada they identified me as teacher material but by that time I was Section Manager of the Long Range Planning Group, one level above where instructors were graded. Still that did not stop me as I considered that one of my functions was to develop the people on my staff and during annual staff reviews they conceded that I had done just that.
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Last edited by merrylander; 07-14-2011 at 12:25 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:45 AM
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Excellent post ty, thanks for taking the time.

What is the solution? As I've mentioned, I know 2 people with HS diplomas that are functionally illiterate. Do I blame the teachers? Not for the one, who was a little, not slow but LD (he was actually pretty smart in many ways). But why did they pass?

I understand the terrain bit btw. I've got an essay by the head of Cleveland schools back when they were excellent (1900??) and he comes right out and says 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sows' ear'

Pete
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  #27  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by piece-itpete View Post
Excellent post ty, thanks for taking the time.

What is the solution? As I've mentioned, I know 2 people with HS diplomas that are functionally illiterate. Do I blame the teachers? Not for the one, who was a little, not slow but LD (he was actually pretty smart in many ways). But why did they pass?

I understand the terrain bit btw. I've got an essay by the head of Cleveland schools back when they were excellent (1900??) and he comes right out and says 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sows' ear'

Pete
And recognize that book learning is not for some people, my cousin left high school in the 9th grade yet he made money like the mint. He winters in Florida and summers back in Quebec, houses at both locationd.
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Last edited by merrylander; 07-14-2011 at 02:02 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-14-2011, 01:18 PM
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TyBrad:

Thanks.. My uncle in the NYC system wanted me as a teenager to have an appreciation for the problem since my parents were always bragging to him about my school and my grades. So everytime we visited, he took me into his inner city school to witness the carnage. I would spend entire days there auditing classes and protecting my life. He lost 3 cars to the kids at the school. Found his car once up on blocks and had to park 1/2 mile away -- was threatened at knifepoint about once a month... So I've actually been in the worst and best of situations..

NOBODY expects miracles. Especially me. Because we simplistically concentrate on single causation of hopelessness rather than acknowledging that folks in trouble have MULTIPLE sources of problems. But I have an inate faith that the capability and ability to learn is inherent in ALL the students.

However, I see no harm in establishing a minimum expectation for academic performance. Without that -- there is no value in a diploma or pretending. Forgetting for the moment about how finances are allocated or teachers are evaluated -- we cannot solve ANY problem for the bottom 30 percentile or so WITHOUT minimum standard evaluation.. You wouldn't want kids in your in your Physic class that were in the lower percentiles of the National Math test. Wouldn't be productive.

The issue of resource allocation and teacher performance is much more complicated. First of all, NCLB affects FEDERAL funds. These account for less than 15 -18% of ALL class funding and tend to already be concentrated in the most economically challenged schools. The FEDERAL testing mandate therefore does not dictate OVERALL policy on teacher evaluation. In fact, the effort needed to obtained FED funding is almost always a wash when you measure all the compliance costs to obtain them. National testing is one good example of the baggage that comes with Washington handouts.

Although the NATIONAL standardized should NEVER affect teacher pay -- they SHOULD be used to give relief to the parents that actually give a damn. (Like the Atlanta lady that I posted in the YouTube link). These people don't have time to debate the issue for another decade. They have a problem TODAY that will determine life-long outcomes. So NCLB SHOULD have been focused on giving the truly caring -- relief to go to alternate sources of education.

BY DEFINITION -- administering a National Standardized test to students only TWICE (i believe I'm right on this) in their whole K-12 career is INSUFFICIENT to measure teacher performance of ANY kind. So we're probably in agreement on your analogy to "changing the workforce every year". BUT -- it is NOT unreasonable to consider merit pay based on intelligiently designed tracking of performance as measured by LOCAL standards.

There are educational settings that are more likely to overcome all those "other variables" that teachers don't have control over. Like Jerry Brown's military academy or any other "prep school" enviromment that sets standards and expectations high enough. We can not continue to design schools for the bottom 10 percentile. That demographic needs INTENSIVE multi-disciplinary intervention. Can't live in meth lab and focus on your life and career... I think everyone acknowledges that.

Last edited by flacaltenn; 07-14-2011 at 01:47 PM.
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  #29  
Old 07-14-2011, 01:50 PM
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I bet this happens alot more then some superintendents would ever admit.
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  #30  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:00 PM
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In MD, there are 5th, 8th, and 9/10th grade State assessments. After a 7yr run, these tests are now being retracted bit-by-bit- at least the four of them in HS. It was a COLOSSAL waste of time, money, resources, and provided lots of hoop-jumping, fear, headaches, constant wheel reinvention when some of it was not broken (change for the sake of change and window dressing) and resulted in many leaving the profession; I considered a career with Lockheed as an engineer with 2.5x the pay than I am making as a teacher because of the mudslide of nonsense over the past decade. There were methods by which 12th graders could do "projects" and "portfolios" in order to circumvent their passing a grad-required HSA test. It is ridiculous and the whole scheme had no teeth in the end, in raising standards.

I for one am tired of the National debate about education; politicians, lawyers, and culture in general have all been complicit in designing the problems that we see in education AND THEY DON"T HAVE A SHUTOFF VALVE!. To patch the last time-wasting folly, another insipid one is enacted to replace it.

Because of what I instruct, I am mostly insulated from what is being discussed here but I do have to implement a lot of stupid stuff because I am in the profession.

I am not opposed to standards for teachers- I have always been a proponent of unscheduled classroom observations. You'd be surprised at how some of the worst teachers in our building can put on a great dog-and-pony show for a scheduled observation. It is all very aggravating to me! Teachers ought to be assessed on lesson delivery and quality , not on student test scores due to the aforementioned problems that precede their entry into my classroom at the beginning of the year and each morning thereafter.

Anyone in the biz can attest to the fact that a very small %age of people in the general population can do this, yet we are treated as non-professionals who need prodding and guidance from those "in the know" about such things after NEVER having stepped into a instructional role in a K-12 classroom. I suppose the converse would be my stepping into a political or CEO role without EVER having experience at it. That's nonsense!

Tyler

Last edited by tybrad; 07-14-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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