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  #21  
Old 05-05-2011, 07:52 AM
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whell whell is offline
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Originally Posted by d-ray657 View Post
If an atheist told you that, would it really be cursing?

Regards,

D-Ray
I dunno, but I've not noticed a difference in sentiment....
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  #22  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:05 AM
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finnbow finnbow is offline
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Originally Posted by whell View Post
You're right, of course. One should have no reason to hope their love life is any better in heaven than it is on Earth.

So, you're suggesting that those who might attribute a favorable outcome to their prayers for a cure to their own affliction or for the improved health of a loved one to their God or thier religious beliefs are no better than a blood-thirsty terrorist? That's an interesting, and I hope singular, perspective.
Not exactly. Someone who prays and thinks improvements in their status are based upon a specific prayer or prayers offered (among many in their lives) is one thing. The Catholic Church in Rome glomming on to that belief and beating the bushes for similar attestations to support canonization is another thing altogether.

As noted in the OP, I find this ritual "decidedly odd." I'm not sure I would characterize that as "bashing religion," as you asserted, but me wondering aloud about the ongoing activities in Rome.

For the record, I attended a private audience with Pope Paul VI on the first day of his Papacy in Rome in the early '60's. Pretty cool stuff for a 10 year old kid at the time.
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  #23  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:09 AM
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whell whell is offline
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post

As noted in the OP, I find this ritual "decidedly odd." I'm not sure I would characterize that as "bashing religion," as you asserted, but me wondering aloud about the ongoing activities in Rome.
To be clear, it was not your comments (at least up to the "terrorist" comment) that struck me as "bashing." Some of the comments in the thread that followed however, did seem a bit pointed.
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  #24  
Old 05-05-2011, 10:39 AM
JonL JonL is offline
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I am unabashed in my bashing of religion. It is superstition at best and a tool for exploitation and destruction at worst. Sure, there have been and continue to be many good and charitable actions done by religious organizations and individuals, but that charity can just as easily exist without the mantle of religion. And that charity does not outweigh the waste of time and outright damage done by and in the name of religion.

Religion exists because human beings are smart enough to recognize the concepts of past and future, birth and death, finite and infinite, but not smart enough to truly understand those concepts. Human beings for some reason believe we are smart enough to understand everything in the world around us, and when presented with concepts that exceed our ability to understand (infinity, what happens when one dies, what happened before the universe existed, etc...) we invent a solution (God) so we don't have to face the fact that we are still humble animals with limitations on our intelligence.

You can call that bashing, I call it reality. What's bashing? Things like the Crusades, the Holocaust, Jihadism, and the genocidal atrocities we have seen in our own generation in Bosnia and Africa. Those are what I call "bashing." Not some stupid, meaningless chatter on a silly internet forum.
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  #25  
Old 05-05-2011, 02:55 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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JonL:

The Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust and even arguably Jihadism would not have gotten off the ground without STATE complicity and funding. So I can't blame religion solely for these things.

Quote:
Human beings for some reason believe we are smart enough to understand everything in the world around us, and when presented with concepts that exceed our ability to understand (infinity, what happens when one dies, what happened before the universe existed, etc...) we invent a solution (God) so we don't have to face the fact that we are still humble animals with limitations on our intelligence.
Why are we not smart enough to know the limits of our own intelligience? Or the limits of our moral strengths? The secular humanists have absolutely no humility. That's disturbing. These are the ultimate know-it-alls. They want you to believe that all the matter and energy in the universe (and now we have to include dark matter and anti-matter) could fit on the head of a pin at the time of the Big Bang.. I don't care what kind of Physicist you are -- that requires much MORE faith than Moses parting the Red Sea.

If you truly meant to claim yourself "a humble animal" then you have faith in something.
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  #26  
Old 05-05-2011, 03:14 PM
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piece-itpete piece-itpete is offline
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Jon, thanks for calling me smart, even if I'm not THAT smart.

Have you ever read the New Testament? You'd find that it is people who did those things, not God.

Pete

PS the holocaust wasn't religious.
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  #27  
Old 05-05-2011, 03:27 PM
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whell whell is offline
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Originally Posted by JonL View Post
You can call that bashing, I call it reality. What's bashing? Things like the Crusades, the Holocaust, Jihadism, and the genocidal atrocities we have seen in our own generation in Bosnia and Africa. Those are what I call "bashing." Not some stupid, meaningless chatter on a silly internet forum.
Let's see. Your argument/linkage/logic is that:

- religion leads to violence, therefore religion is bad.
- Christianity lead to the Crusades, the Crusades killed people, so Christianity is bad
- The bible depicts violent acts and wars. The bible is a religious document. Religion is bad.
- Islam lead to to Jihad. Jihad kills people. Therefore Islam is bad.

So, maybe we should get busy applying that same logic, if it works well for you. How 'bout this.

- JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was an Atheist. Atheism in bad.

- The Soviet Union was an athestic state. The Soviets slaughtered millions of their own people. Atheism kills.

- Hitler was conflicted in his religious beliefs throughout most of his life, ultimately choosing, according to some, to place Germany ahead of any notion of a "god". Hitler was a Nazi. Those who are conflicted about their religion or reject "god" are Nazi's.

If we're gonna be consistent, then by God (oops) let's be consistent.

Last edited by whell; 05-05-2011 at 03:31 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-05-2011, 03:41 PM
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finnbow finnbow is offline
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Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post
The secular humanists have absolutely no humility. That's disturbing. These are the ultimate know-it-alls.
It goes both ways. Religious people insist that non-religious lack morals or a deeper understanding of life. Do morals or a deeper understanding derive from belief in myths?

Why is it that a man must believe in said (unproveable, unknowable) myths, and exclusively the Christian version thereof, to run for President?

Interesting article on atheism in America recently in the WaPost:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...wGF_story.html

Its author takes questions here:
http://live.washingtonpost.com/why-d...silverman.html

For the record, I consider myself agnostic (i.e., I don't understand the origins of the universe or God, don't claim to, and don't waste time trying to convince myself that a book written two thousand years ago has answers to this riddle)
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  #29  
Old 05-05-2011, 03:53 PM
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whell whell is offline
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
Why is it that a man must believe in said (unproveable, unknowable) myths, and exclusively the Christian version thereof, to run for President?
I know. It really cheeses-off those folks who reject the idea that this is essentially a Christian nation.
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  #30  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:23 PM
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Combwork Combwork is offline
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Originally Posted by whell View Post
You're right, of course. One should have no reason to hope their love life is any better in heaven than it is on Earth.

So, you're suggesting that those who might attribute a favorable outcome to their prayers for a cure to their own affliction or for the improved health of a loved one to their God or thier religious beliefs are no better than a blood-thirsty terrorist? That's an interesting, and I hope singular, perspective.
Not that singular. Pleas for divine intervention to cure a loved one or promises to attack the non-believers can both be made in the name of the same religion. It's nothing new; Christians were at it in both crusades, Caligula used belief in his own divinity to justify terrible acts. Vlad the impaler? Barking mad but also believed in his own divinity.

I have no religious beliefs. I don't know if there's an afterlife, or some other form of continuity but I don't feel the need to kneel before a totem, no matter what religion it represents. Arrogant? No, just being realistic. Belief is not the same as faith, and imo neither should depend on blind acceptance of cruelty. Is there any difference between extreme believers in Islam stoning an adulteress to death, or extreme Evangelical Christians beating the devil out of a child. "Yep, the operation was successful, but the patient died".
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