Israel has invaded Gaza...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

You mean if they would shut up and just accept being treated like dogshit?

Then the international community would pretend like everything is hunky dory and forget about them. That's what would happen.

Jewish apologism at its best.

And 100% accurate as a prediction.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by BeamOn

Correction, it's $351 million. But then there is the annual $3.1 Billion military aid to Israel, even when they don't really need it as their economy is very robust and booming.

I stand corrected.

But as far as I am concerned ten cents would have been ten cents too much.

[finnbow]

What's particularly galling to a lot of West Bank Palestinians is that Israel has actively recruited Jewish immigrants from all over the world to their shores since 1950 when they enacted their Law of Return, whereby anybody half Jewish (at least at the mother's side) along with any child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew can immigrate. In a very short period in the early 1990's, they allowed 1.6 million Russian to immigrate.

A lot of these immigrants, due to persecution in their native lands and/or strong beliefs in the Zionist ideal, are happy to build settlements (legally or otherwise) on Palestinian lands inside the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. FWIW, many of these (sometimes illegal) settlers are American. There are now 350,000 settlers living in the West Bank and over 200,000 living in East Jerusalem. A big reason for these settlements is to establish "facts on the ground," thereby cementing Israeli dominance over these lands.

Meanwhile, any discussion of Palestinian "right of return" for refugees of the 1948 or 1967 wars is formally off-the-table in any Israel-Palestine talks. How do you think you'd feel if you were born in Hebron, Jerico, Ramallah or Bethlehem? I guarantee you'd be at little less sympathetic to Israel, its Zionist ideals, 30' concrete walls and humiliating treatment within them.

I was as strongly pro-Israel as any American until I went there the first time in 1983. I've now been there over 5 weeks on several visits and covered virtually every square inch of the place from Eilat to the Golan Heights. I've also been all over the West Bank, but never in Gaza (though very close). Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What's particularly galling to a lot of West Bank Palestinians is that Israel has actively recruited Jewish immigrants from all over the world to their shores since 1950 when they enacted their Law of Return, whereby anybody half Jewish (at least at the mother's side) along with any child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew can immigrate. In a very short period in the early 1990's, they allowed 1.6 million Russian to immigrate.

A lot of these immigrants, due to persecution in their native lands and/or strong beliefs in the Zionist ideal, are happy to build settlements (legally or otherwise) on Palestinian lands inside the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. FWIW, many of these (sometimes illegal) settlers are American. There are now 350,000 settlers living in the West Bank and over 200,000 living in East Jerusalem. A big reason for these settlements is to establish "facts on the ground," thereby cementing Israeli dominance over these lands.

Meanwhile, any discussion of Palestinian "right of return" for refugees of the 1948 or 1967 wars is formally off-the-table in any Israel-Palestine talks. How do you think you'd feel if you were born in Hebron, Jerico, Ramallah or Bethlehem? I guarantee you'd be at little less sympathetic to Israel, its Zionist ideals, 30' concrete walls and humiliating treatment within them.

I was as strongly pro-Israel as any American until I went there the first time in 1983. I've now been there over 5 weeks on several visits and covered virtually every square inch of the place from Eilat to the Golan Heights. I've also been all over the West Bank, but never in Gaza (though very close). Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

Finn, I would like to complement on your post.

Although being there a few times hardly makes you an authority, is essence you have portrayed the complex nature of things which cannot be dismissed with a short term view.

Nothing is as simple as it seems at first view...especially the nature of homo sapiens to murder one another over perceived slights. We're so intelligent that we're cretins, and can't see it.

Chas

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Charles

Finn, I would like to complement on your post.

Although being there a few times hardly makes you an authority, is essence you have portrayed the complex nature of things which cannot be dismissed with a short term view.

Nothing is as simple as it seems at first view...especially the nature of homo sapiens to murder one another over perceived slights. We're so intelligent that we're cretins, and can't see it.

Chas

Thanks, stranger. With my son having now lived there for almost 2 years (supporting our State Department doing construction management in Tel Aviv), I try to keep up with what's going on over there. I go to the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz websites every day to read what's shakin' among God's Chosen People.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

I don't disagree with this Finn. However, the Palestinian leadership his the intractable problem of allying itself with those who will accept nothing more that "wiping Israel off the map." Not exactly a great starting place for negotiations. Its also tough to negotiate with random rockets raining down on your country. In the meantime, the Israelis, not sinless in this conflict, have given at the negotiating table just about everything the Palestinians have demanded, only to see the offer rejected.

Its hard to come to a peaceful agreement with your enemy when your enemy will accept nothing less than your extinction.

[mpholland]

Originally Posted by finnbow

What's particularly galling to a lot of West Bank Palestinians is that Israel has actively recruited Jewish immigrants from all over the world to their shores since 1950 when they enacted their Law of Return, whereby anybody half Jewish (at least at the mother's side) along with any child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew can immigrate. In a very short period in the early 1990's, they allowed 1.6 million Russian to immigrate.

A lot of these immigrants, due to persecution in their native lands and/or strong beliefs in the Zionist ideal, are happy to build settlements (legally or otherwise) on Palestinian lands inside the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. FWIW, many of these (sometimes illegal) settlers are American. There are now 350,000 settlers living in the West Bank and over 200,000 living in East Jerusalem. A big reason for these settlements is to establish "facts on the ground," thereby cementing Israeli dominance over these lands.

Meanwhile, any discussion of Palestinian "right of return" for refugees of the 1948 or 1967 wars is formally off-the-table in any Israel-Palestine talks. How do you think you'd feel if you were born in Hebron, Jerico, Ramallah or Bethlehem? I guarantee you'd be at little less sympathetic to Israel, its Zionist ideals, 30' concrete walls and humiliating treatment within them.

I was as strongly pro-Israel as any American until I went there the first time in 1983. I've now been there over 5 weeks on several visits and covered virtually every square inch of the place from Eilat to the Golan Heights. I've also been all over the West Bank, but never in Gaza (though very close). Now I'm able to see both sides and am unwilling to demonize or dehumanize Palestinians, even if I disapprove of their tactics and intransigence. They deserve a lot better than they're getting from their leadership and Israel.

I know Isreal used to let only few thousand people per day from Gaza go to work in Isreal, and workers could only go through one of three security checkpoints on the border. Another checkpoint was for trucks and shipping and sometimes trucks would have to wait days to get their shipment through the wall. I can't imagine that being very profitable for loads of perishable produce. Isreal of course claims that this is all for security purposes, but it kind of makes you wonder why the need for security. Hmmm. Definitely a perpetual dilemma. I have heard stories from people who have been there that say Isrealis blocked roads inside Gaza that make people commute 45 minutes for what used to take 5 minutes. Fences went up through pastures so people had to travel long distances to tend to livestock that is pastured in what used to be their back yard. I think a lot of people don't understand the Palestinian life very well or how the Isreali treat them. The Palestinians might not be doing the right thing, but what is the right thing. Exercises in futility are often spawned by frustration.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by BeamOn

Correction, it's $351 million. But then there is the annual $3.1 Billion military aid to Israel, even when they don't really need it as their economy is very robust and booming.

Must be booming when so many Russian rascals seeking Israeli haven and protection.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

I don't disagree with this Finn. However, the Palestinian leadership his the intractable problem of allying itself with those who will accept nothing more that "wiping Israel off the map." Not exactly a great starting place for negotiations. Its also tough to negotiate with random rockets raining down on your country. In the meantime, the Israelis, not sinless in this conflict, have given at the negotiating table just about everything the Palestinians have demanded, only to see the offer rejected.

Its hard to come to a peaceful agreement with your enemy when your enemy will accept nothing less than your extinction.

True enough. However, the far right of Bibi's coalition want to wipe the West Bank off the map due to their perceived biblical right to Judea and Samaria. Therein lies the rub.

Hamas wanting to wipe Israel off the map is mostly rhetorical flourish. Israel wiping the West Bank off the map is happening right before our (deliberately shielded) eyes. Have you taken the time to take a look at recent maps of the West Bank Israel settlements? It's not a few bearded people in pup tents as some Americans seem to think.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by mpholland

I know Isreal used to let only few thousand people per day from Gaza go to work in Isreal, and workers could only go through one of three security checkpoints on the border. Another checkpoint was for trucks and shipping and sometimes trucks would have to wait days to get their shipment through the wall. I can't imagine that being very profitable for loads of perishable produce. Isreal of course claims that this is all for security purposes, but it kind of makes you wonder why the need for security. Hmmm. Definitely a perpetual dilemma. I have heard stories from people who have been there that say Isrealis blocked roads inside Gaza that make people commute 45 minutes for what used to take 5 minutes. Fences went up through pastures so people had to travel long distances to tend to livestock that is pastured in what used to be their back yard. I think a lot of people don't understand the Palestinian life very well or how the Isreali treat them. The Palestinians might not be doing the right thing, but what is the right thing. Exercises in futility are often spawned by frustration.

Thanks for posting this.

This is the other side of the story which you will never hear from the US mainstream media. I became aware of these issues from listening to "Democracy Now" with Amy Goodman.

I would be interested to see responses to this post from our pro-Israeli posters.