Signs of the Times - and a question

[whell]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Now, try to tell that to the folks who refuse to hire unless they see that rise in demand first and bitch that the minimum wage is too much.

Good luck with that.

Dave

it's not about just minimum wage. It's about the ability to produce a product that is high quality and affordable relative to the competition while making a reasonable profit.

Set aside the obligatory comments about high -paid CEO's. Most businesses don't want to commit to hiring decisions unless they're sure that the work and the job is sustainable. As an example, a tooling maker that I support has had their margins eaten alive increasingly over the last few years. They run a lean shop, don't pay themselves exorbitantly, treat their employees well, and have had to price their products close to the bone to compete with non-US companies. They'd like to take on new work, but not at their cuurent margins, and not at the risk of hiring employees to do it if the work isn't sustainable. They look ahead and see real risk of costs increasing due to tax law changes and health care law changes. They are therefore risk averse and are choosing to hunker down and wait out this "storm" as best they can.

The storyline above is very common with most business owners I speak with. It is under-reported, because it's not a sexy story and these folks generally are just looking to run their businesses, not be in the news.

[BlueStreak]

Yes, yes, I know. Actually, we do hear about it. Those of us who can pay attention for more than 3 minutes, anyhow.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Unions and "well paying" jobs are a blessing to those few who still, for
whatever reason, manage to hold one down. For everyone else they are
a curse and a plague on the economy. Higher salaries mean less
quality and jobs with little chance to compete against imports and their slave
labor. And don't give that crap about 10-12 year old Fords and GM
being great cars. They are a pile of shit compared to Toyota and Honda
of the same year.
Not Ford or GM's fault BTW.

How do "...higher salaries mean less quality..."?

And how is the lack of quality allegedly inherent in GM and Ford products not the fault of the people who produce them? Then whose fault is it, Jack?

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

Unions and "well paying" jobs are a blessing to those few who still, for
whatever reason, manage to hold one down. For everyone else they are
a curse and a plague on the economy. Higher salaries mean less
quality and jobs with little chance to compete against imports and their slave
labor. And don't give that crap about 10-12 year old Fords and GM
being great cars. They are a pile of shit compared to Toyota and Honda
of the same year.
Not Ford or GM's fault BTW.

Cars, maybe. Trucks? Nyet in my experience. My '97 F250 5.8l V8 had 277,000 and was goin' strong when I unloaded it earlier this year. I downsized to a '03 Ranger six banger w/ 40k already on it for the gas savings. The fit and finish ain't too shabby Jack. Much as I admire the imports attempt at quality I'm not ready personally to buy a Toy effin' yoda. I've got nothing against the Japanese other than they're dumping vehicles in our marketplace and crowing about how they lost the shootin' war but that they are going to win the economic war.

Yeah, I know you asked not to mention automobiles but if there's one thing that fuckin' pisses me off is the America Love it or Leave it libertarian teabagging punks who think it's OK not to support American businesses and American workers that live next door to them, it's when they tell me that unions are to blame for the mess we're in. Maybe you and me aren't up to union standards Jack? Ever thought of that? There is a certain litmus test to be accepted in most unions. I don't know about you but I will never cross a picket line. Not if I was starving. That's one.

Before you start asking me if I'm some union organizer or a shop steward the answer is no. I a self employed proud nail pounding owner of my own measley one horse show that refuses to shoot holes in my own boat by buying a Toyota or Hondato save a few bucks, I would rather ride a friggin' bicycle first. Try not to be too smug about dissing American workers is my best advice to those who shop at WalMart or buy Hyundais or some other foreign company dumping their subsidized slave made shit on our market. Sometimes I'm forced to buy from that paragon of the corporate world Home Depot but they are my last choice for supplies in my line of work. Dead last.

You guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror about this subject. You don't even know you are selling or buying us down the proverbial river. It ain't kool aid, you know, it's fuckin' hemlock you guys are suckin' down. Sheesh! What a pickle we're in when a dumbfu@king nail pounder sees this and you can't Jack. I expect these trite oh so reasonable arguments from whellie and his ilk but shit man...."fairly compete in our own marketplace?" I know whellie that I'm paraphrasing but you're still full of shit.

[merrylander]

Sorry Jack but we have two twelve year old Chevy Impala LSs in the garage that say you are full of it. In those twelve year we have replace the batteries and tires. Both look nearly new and run very well. Bring any riceburner you chose around and I will let Florence blow the doors off it like she did with that stupid little twit in the Jaguar. Poor sod, little grey haired ladies are not supposed to drive like that.

[piece-itpete]

I'd put my 10 year old Mercury up against any Toy Yoda



But agreed that many imports are better quality. They forced the domestics to improve for sure.

With tariffs and protectionism we'd still be driving 'unimproved' cars ....

Pete

[whell]

Originally Posted by bobabode

What a pickle we're in when a dumbfu@king nail pounder sees this and you can't Jack. I expect these trite oh so reasonable arguments from whellie and his ilk but shit man...."fairly compete in our own marketplace?" I know whellie that I'm paraphrasing but you're still full of shit.

Keep pounding those nails, Booby. While you're pounding away, maybe you'll have a revelation that will take you beyond wrote, reflexive, canned responses that you typically provide and offer a cogent explanation of why businesses have moved production of many consumer goods outside the US, and how you believe we can get them back again. In case you've lost track, that's what this thread was originally about, and maybe by expanding incentive for conversion of capital will lead to a resurgence in employment. Doing so competitively is also part of that discussion, since otherwise those jobs will remain in China and Mexico.

I don't expect as much, but maybe you can also elevate your dialogue to some level above the "you're full of shit" level, and form rational, coherent and descriptive sentences that don't have to rely on invective and insult to convey an idea. Doesn't bother me much, but the use of such phrases reflects far more on your ability to form a thought and a sentence than it does on the target of your invective. Maybe I'm hoping for too much from you, and if so, I apologize.

[HatchetJack]

Whatever Rob, I have 2000 Ford Taurus, a 2005 Dodge Magnum, a 1999
Toyota tacoma and a 1993 Toyota Camry. The Toyota's are far and away
better designed cars.
All indications are that GM is once again headed for bankruptcy due to high
labor and retirement costs. I just don't think it's fair that the taxpayers,
most who make far less in income and benefits should help to bail them
out again. They are never again going to be able to compete in a world
market against non union car companies that put out a better product because
they are not saddled down trying to fund union wages and 4-1 people who
no longer even work. The odds are not in our favor under the new market.
Auto companies are just one example.

[bobabode]

Blah, blah, blah! Cogent enough for you?LOL. Lighten up whellie.

[JJIII]

To the original question, research the "Fair Tax" and see what it does for business.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

and here...

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...ut_faq_answers

and here...

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...name=about_faq