Church - A place for quiet reflection ...

[flacaltenn]

JonL:

Sometimes, given our awful foreign policy and bad choices on using the military, I'm sure that Washington doesn't deserve to wield cruise missiles, tanks, bazookas and ESPECIALLY the keys to the nuke locker. We've bombed SIX (muslim) countries this year. Would YOU issue a nuke license to a country like that?

[JonL]

I don't like the fact that ANY governments have the fearsome armaments they do, and I certainly don't agree with US foreign policy more often than not. That really has nothing to do with the fact that I don't want any individual wackos running around with rocket launchers or even assault rifles. All that BS about watering some metaphorical tree with the blood of tyrants and patriots is a nice sound bite. Tell that to the families of Columbine, or Virginia, or the Gifford tragedy, or... on and on and on and on and on. Far more people have and will be killed by psychos with weapons they shouldn't possess than will be killed in any armed struggle that actually results in "freedom." Freedom from what??? Freedom for whom? Freedom these days is a word that really means "We at ACME Mega Corp want to poison your groundwater with hyrdofracking, spill millions of gallons of oil into your waterways, modify the genetics of your crops to force you to use our herbicides (and then sue your ass when your natural crops get contaminated by cross-polinization), invent ridiculously convoluted financial derivatives to steal your money, etc etc... and do it FREE from regulation and FREE from taxation. You think any of this BS about "freedom" has anything to do at all with helping the INDIVIDUAL? Laughable.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by JonL

I don't like the fact that ANY governments have the fearsome armaments they do, and I certainly don't agree with US foreign policy more often than not. That really has nothing to do with the fact that I don't want any individual wackos running around with rocket launchers or even assault rifles. All that BS about watering some metaphorical tree with the blood of tyrants and patriots is a nice sound bite. Tell that to the families of Columbine, or Virginia, or the Gifford tragedy, or... on and on and on and on and on. Far more people have and will be killed by psychos with weapons they shouldn't possess than will be killed in any armed struggle that actually results in "freedom." Freedom from what??? Freedom for whom? Freedom these days is a word that really means "We at ACME Mega Corp want to poison your groundwater with hyrdofracking, spill millions of gallons of oil into your waterways, modify the genetics of your crops to force you to use our herbicides (and then sue your ass when your natural crops get contaminated by cross-polinization), invent ridiculously convoluted financial derivatives to steal your money, etc etc... and do it FREE from regulation and FREE from taxation. You think any of this BS about "freedom" has anything to do at all with helping the INDIVIDUAL? Laughable.

Tell it brother, tell it.!

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by JonL

I don't like the fact that ANY governments have the fearsome armaments they do, and I certainly don't agree with US foreign policy more often than not. That really has nothing to do with the fact that I don't want any individual wackos running around with rocket launchers or even assault rifles. All that BS about watering some metaphorical tree with the blood of tyrants and patriots is a nice sound bite. Tell that to the families of Columbine, or Virginia, or the Gifford tragedy, or... on and on and on and on and on. Far more people have and will be killed by psychos with weapons they shouldn't possess than will be killed in any armed struggle that actually results in "freedom." Freedom from what??? Freedom for whom? Freedom these days is a word that really means "We at ACME Mega Corp want to poison your groundwater with hyrdofracking, spill millions of gallons of oil into your waterways, modify the genetics of your crops to force you to use our herbicides (and then sue your ass when your natural crops get contaminated by cross-polinization), invent ridiculously convoluted financial derivatives to steal your money, etc etc... and do it FREE from regulation and FREE from taxation. You think any of this BS about "freedom" has anything to do at all with helping the INDIVIDUAL? Laughable.

WOW!!!!!

Rock on, JonL!!!!!

Dave

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by JonL

I don't like the fact that ANY governments have the fearsome armaments they do, and I certainly don't agree with US foreign policy more often than not. That really has nothing to do with the fact that I don't want any individual wackos running around with rocket launchers or even assault rifles. All that BS about watering some metaphorical tree with the blood of tyrants and patriots is a nice sound bite. Tell that to the families of Columbine, or Virginia, or the Gifford tragedy, or... on and on and on and on and on. Far more people have and will be killed by psychos with weapons they shouldn't possess than will be killed in any armed struggle that actually results in "freedom." Freedom from what??? Freedom for whom? Freedom these days is a word that really means "We at ACME Mega Corp want to poison your groundwater with hyrdofracking, spill millions of gallons of oil into your waterways, modify the genetics of your crops to force you to use our herbicides (and then sue your ass when your natural crops get contaminated by cross-polinization), invent ridiculously convoluted financial derivatives to steal your money, etc etc... and do it FREE from regulation and FREE from taxation. You think any of this BS about "freedom" has anything to do at all with helping the INDIVIDUAL? Laughable.

you don't understand, guns make us safe

[piece-itpete]

Freedom for government control of everything. And there is no doubt that business has a great deal of influence in government. By both parties. So give government - more power?

Let's not zoom in on sound bites. Here is more:

"Wonderful is the effect of impudent & persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11 years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. ..."

The whole letter: http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs...rien/blood.htm

Pete

[JonL]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Freedom for government control of everything. And there is no doubt that business has a great deal of influence in government. By both parties. So give government - more power?
...
Pete

Corporate influence and the greed of individual politicians have combined to corrupt government. No question, no argument. But without government regulation, powerful (and not so powerful) corporations would be free to cause irreparable harm to people and the environment in the short-sighted chase for profits. That should be quite obvious. Government is the people's only line of protection. The fact that government has become dysfunctional and often more an ally of business than of the people doesn't mean that less government is necessarily the answer. IMO, the answer is to restore our government to being representatives (and leaders) of the people, and not of powerful corporations. Campaign finance reform would be a good place to start.

I'm not sure how I feel about term limits... in one sense it should reduce the corrupting influence that might come along with an extended incumbency, but on the other hand it also artificially removes skilled and effective people from our government. I've spent a tiny bit of time in DC meeting with senate and house staffers, and I can see how the learning curve to becoming effective is very steep. I also think that term limits and automatic spending caps, and other mechanisms like that are the easy way out. People should be involved enough to know when things aren't going the way they like, and vote out the bastards instead of letting some automatic trigger do it for them, for better or for worse. That would of course require a better informed electorate... which should go hand in hand with campaign finance reform.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by JonL

I'm not sure how I feel about term limits... in one sense it should reduce the corrupting influence that might come along with an extended incumbency, but on the other hand it also artificially removes skilled and effective people from our government. I've spent a tiny bit of time in DC meeting with senate and house staffers, and I can see how the learning curve to becoming effective is very steep. I also think that term limits and automatic spending caps, and other mechanisms like that are the easy way out. People should be involved enough to know when things aren't going the way they like, and vote out the bastards instead of letting some automatic trigger do it for them, for better or for worse. That would of course require a better informed electorate... which should go hand in hand with campaign finance reform.

Good point here. In many instances, the staffers represent the institutional knowledge (not to mention the grunt work) behind what gets done in Washington. Case in point - Last week's 11th hour budget negotiations were not between Boehner and Reed, but between their respective Chiefs of Staff.

[merrylander]

The only part of that diatribe I believed was the last sentence about natural manure. That this nation was born in violence seems to have set the mood.

[piece-itpete]

All nations have been born in violence.

Pete