Church - A place for quiet reflection ...

[flacaltenn]

JonL:

But without federal regulation, there wouldn't even be minimum standards. The federal turkey regulations don't allow corporations to sell adulterated, modified meat as "pure turkey," they restrict the level of adulteration the corporations can include. Without minimum standards, what would "Turkey" be like? Who knows. There would certainly be unscrupulous companies foisting horrible things on the public as "Turkey." Without regulation there would be no need for them to disclose what's inside. The minimum standard is (or should be) intended to ensure that the least common denominator is still safe and that the consumer knows what they are getting. Companies like Hebrew National are still free to exceed that standard. There is still market choice in action. If the regulations and standards are poorly written, they should be improved, and not with the undue influence of the industry.

Hate to be a rigorous bore here but your 2nd sentence contradicts itself logically. The truth is federal standards ALLOW the sale of mystery meat and adulteration (not to mention purposefully blurring the concepts of frozen, organic, or natural). Ask any Organic frantic person whether they trust the FEDERAL definition of organic or if they have a 3rd party private certification that they trust more.

Do you trust Underwriters' Labs? Do you trust Consumer Reports? These are all valid alternatives to questionable govt standards that ARE potentially juggled by industry..

And here's the rub. The Feds are NOT experts on every aspect of our daily lives. In fact, I don't want legislation on turkey written without input from the 1000s of experts out there providing the product everyday. So when you say "without undue influence from industry" -- it's trickier than you might think.. Do you really want an energy policy written without input from the big producers? If you do-- we need to live in separate countries..

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

JonL:



Hate to be a rigorous bore here but your 2nd sentence contradicts itself logically. The truth is federal standards ALLOW the sale of mystery meat and adulteration (not to mention purposefully blurring the concepts of frozen, organic, or natural). Ask any Organic frantic person whether they trust the FEDERAL definition of organic or if they have a 3rd party private certification that they trust more.

Do you trust Underwriters' Labs? Do you trust Consumer Reports? These are all valid alternatives to questionable govt standards that ARE potentially juggled by industry..

And here's the rub. The Feds are NOT experts on every aspect of our daily lives. In fact, I don't want legislation on turkey written without input from the 1000s of experts out there providing the product everyday. So when you say "without undue influence from industry" -- it's trickier than you might think.. Do you really want an energy policy written without input from the big producers? If you do-- we need to live in separate countries..

Perhaps you would rather have your turkey produced, warehoused and delivered to you in the cheapest possible manner? And, no, I don't trust UL or Consumer Reports anymore than I trust government regulators. Are they really any less corruptible? You may think so, but I don't.

I happen to work in the food industry, BTW. So be careful of the claims you make regarding food safety.

Dave

[JonL]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

JonL:



Hate to be a rigorous bore here but your 2nd sentence contradicts itself logically. The truth is federal standards ALLOW the sale of mystery meat and adulteration (not to mention purposefully blurring the concepts of frozen, organic, or natural). Ask any Organic frantic person whether they trust the FEDERAL definition of organic or if they have a 3rd party private certification that they trust more.

Do you trust Underwriters' Labs? Do you trust Consumer Reports? These are all valid alternatives to questionable govt standards that ARE potentially juggled by industry..

And here's the rub. The Feds are NOT experts on every aspect of our daily lives. In fact, I don't want legislation on turkey written without input from the 1000s of experts out there providing the product everyday. So when you say "without undue influence from industry" -- it's trickier than you might think.. Do you really want an energy policy written without input from the big producers? If you do-- we need to live in separate countries..

Maybe my syntax was confusing. I'll try to clarify... without regulation, companies are free to do whatever they damn well please. They could slap a "Turkey" label on anything at all, turkey or not. If they were concerned about lawsuits, they'd put in the bare minimum amount of a turkey product that they thought would optimize their profits balanced by the lawsuits they might lose.

The regulations RESTRICT the amount of adulteration. Maybe not as much as you or I would like, but without the regulations there would be NO control whatsoever.

I'd love to see better written regulations that are more protective of consumer rights than they are of industry profits, and that's a good reason to restrict corporate power over the government. In no way does that mean that organizations such as UL, consumer reports, etc. aren't very valuable as well.

I agree that industry should be consulted in drafting regulations, and that was one of the things that impressed me about the way the EPA went about their regulatory process. I said regulations should be written without UNDUE influence, meaning that the more powerful corporations shouldn't be able to create a self-serving, non-level playing field, nor should the powerful corporations' influence subvert the reasons for the regulations in the first place, which should be to protect the common good and not simply the corporations' interests.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

JonL:



And here's the rub. The Feds are NOT experts on every aspect of our daily lives. In fact, I don't want legislation on turkey written without input from the 1000s of experts out there providing the product everyday. So when you say "without undue influence from industry" -- it's trickier than you might think.. Do you really want an energy policy written without input from the big producers? If you do-- we need to live in separate countries..

Then there is no problem because Prince Dickie invited Enron, Exxon, Chevron, et. al. to the White House to write the last energy bill, So how do you like your $4 a gallon gasoline?

[flacaltenn]

Actually BlueStreak:

Perhaps you would rather have your turkey produced, warehoused and delivered to you in the cheapest possible manner? And, no, I don't trust UL or Consumer Reports anymore than I trust government regulators. Are they really any less corruptible? You may think so, but I don't.

I never buy the cheapest ANYTHING. Learned that from a penny-pinching dad who would buy 12 sponges for a dollar and use one a day because they fell apart. Or who bought the cheaper tires and had them blow out at the rims. That's a choice. Thank God.

If I were king -- I'd have the National Guard blow up every Dollar Store in the country. (Just Kidding.. Seriously,,, just kidding)

And before you accuse me of being insensitive to the realities of poorer folk who can't afford the "better", that's what WalMart is about. (YES FOLKS -- I brought up WalMart in a forum on religion) They will not sacrifice ALL the value in everything they sell. They can't afford to piss-off their clientele. But when it comes to offering the lowest possible price -- they balance their "responsibility" to the customers EQUALLY with the return to the stockholders. Because even tho some of my new buds here won't admit it, you can't offer bundles of returns to the stockholders while you repeatedly rape your customer base..

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Actually BlueStreak:



I never buy the cheapest ANYTHING. Learned that from a penny-pinching dad who would buy 12 sponges for a dollar and use one a day because they fell apart. Or who bought the cheaper tires and had them blow out at the rims. That's a choice. Thank God.

If I were king -- I'd have the National Guard blow up every Dollar Store in the country. (Just Kidding.. Seriously,,, just kidding)

And before you accuse me of being insensitive to the realities of poorer folk who can't afford the "better", that's what WalMart is about. (YES FOLKS -- I brought up WalMart in a forum on religion) They will not sacrifice ALL the value in everything they sell. They can't afford to piss-off their clientele. But when it comes to offering the lowest possible price -- they balance their "responsibility" to the customers EQUALLY with the return to the stockholders. Because even tho some of my new buds here won't admit it, you can't offer bundles of returns to the stockholders while you repeatedly rape your customer base..

I think that neither the free marketeers nor the proponents of regulation can expect to be absolutists. There can be no denying that the market influences corporate behavior, but we have seen evidence of the abuses that can occur when there is no regulation.

Accepting that market forces have some influence doesn't mean that keeping the customer satisfied will cure all instances of corporate abuse. I imagine that there was a time when department stores did not want to use African American store clerks because some customers would be offended (I can remember a store manager ditching the application of an African American lady I recommended after I interviewed her). You can be damn sure that Walmart would pay below the minimum wage if they could get away with it. Companies can also keep their customers satisfied by offering lower prices, even if those lower prices result in the community having to ultimately pay the price for environmentally unsound manufacturing methods.

The "invisible hand" just ain't quite strong enough.

Regards,

D-Ray

[flacaltenn]

OK JonL:

Truce.. I reserve the eco-whack moniker for only the hardest cases. I guess when I weigh all the bad effects of govt/corp collusion against a pretty wimpy MINIMAL description of what turkey is --- I'd rather the govt stick to FOOD SAFETY in general and NOT try to define every item I encounter during the day. I have plenty of choices, plenty of 3rd party knowledge and support and somehow I manage to avoid setting myself on fire every day without reading the Federal Register.

Once you allow the FEDS to get to that level of detail, it's IMPOSSIBLE to not invite corporate meddling.

Take energy for example. A little more complicated than a turkey sandwich. Can you define an energy policy (MerryLander you copy?) without knowing what's in the laboratories of all the GIANT corporations around the world? Not an intelligient one.

So you ask for input, fund some development. But now you're already knee-deep in proprietary non-disclosures and preventing the leakage of corporate secrets you might have been asked to keep. How the heck can you NOT expect collusion?

The Fed can cajole, cheerlead, inform, and regulate. They are NOT good at picking market winners/losers or innovation....

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

...somehow I manage to avoid setting myself on fire every day without reading the Federal Register.
....

ROTFLMAO that's hilarious!!

Pete

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

OK JonL:

Truce.. I reserve the eco-whack moniker for only the hardest cases. I guess when I weigh all the bad effects of govt/corp collusion against a pretty wimpy MINIMAL description of what turkey is --- I'd rather the govt stick to FOOD SAFETY in general and NOT try to define every item I encounter during the day. I have plenty of choices, plenty of 3rd party knowledge and support and somehow I manage to avoid setting myself on fire every day without reading the Federal Register.

Once you allow the FEDS to get to that level of detail, it's IMPOSSIBLE to not invite corporate meddling.

Take energy for example. A little more complicated than a turkey sandwich. Can you define an energy policy (MerryLander you copy?) without knowing what's in the laboratories of all the GIANT corporations around the world? Not an intelligient one.

So you ask for input, fund some development. But now you're already knee-deep in proprietary non-disclosures and preventing the leakage of corporate secrets you might have been asked to keep. How the heck can you NOT expect collusion?

The Fed can cajole, cheerlead, inform, and regulate. They are NOT good at picking market winners/losers or innovation....

I am not suggesting picking winners, so what is sensible about the Fed giving big oil tax breaks for expoiting our oil? You and I (well at least I) kow damn well that lobbyist get to write and re-write legislation to suit the interests of the corporations. Why else does the income tax act have more than twice as many words as the Bible?

We all know, or bloody well should knoe, that when the Supremes legalized bribery we started down the road to hell.

All I know is that where I came from there are regulations designed to protect the public. Energy rates are less than half ours. People have universal healthcare, aged people are looked after and taxes are roughly the same as here. So where did we screw up?

[flacaltenn]

Piece-ItPete:

Anyone who feels safer because the USDA says that turkey ravioli has to have a minimum of 2% turkey meat, but your frozen turkey dinner has to have a full 2 ounces of turkey meat, needs to worry about spontaneously bursting into flames...