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02-10-2017, 02:55 PM
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Persona non grata
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 12,654
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I don't care what anybody says, due to dramatic increases in worker productivity we have a surplus of labor.
Robotics is going to make this surplus even more acute.
It's a wet dream for employers because they can dictate the terms of employment they want and the poor desperate for a job masses have to eat whatever shit sandwich they are offered.
The way I see it we have two options.
One is to create a shitload of non-jobs with the government.
The other is to pay people not to work, like we pay farmers not to grow shit in order to avoid surpluses.
I favor paying people not to work.
That's what I see the guaranteed income to be.
__________________
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
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02-10-2017, 03:13 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 13,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Joad
I don't care what anybody says, due to dramatic increases in worker productivity we have a surplus of labor.
Robotics is going to make this surplus even more acute.
It's a wet dream for employers because they can dictate the terms of employment they want and the poor desperate for a job masses have to eat whatever shit sandwich they are offered.
The way I see it we have two options.
One is to create a shitload of non-jobs with the government.
The other is to pay people not to work, like we pay farmers not to grow shit in order to avoid surpluses.
I favor paying people not to work.
That's what I see the guaranteed income to be.
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Curious: what do you think will happen to the labor surplus and high productivity when we start paying people not to work?
Also, assuming this....um...interesting economic theory is put into place, and somehow supply meets demand in the labor market, how do you convince all those folks who are being paid not to work that they actually need to go back to work?
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02-10-2017, 03:31 PM
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Persona non grata
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 12,654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell
Curious: what do you think will happen to the labor surplus and high productivity when we start paying people not to work?
Also, assuming this....um...interesting economic theory is put into place, and somehow supply meets demand in the labor market, how do you convince all those folks who are being paid not to work that they actually need to go back to work?
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You would get enough for basic necessities by not working. You work for the luxuries and frills.
Type A's like you will be happy to work to get more material stuff.
Type B's like me will be happy to just chill on the couch.
Which is what I have been doing for the past 9 years.
__________________
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Last edited by Tom Joad; 02-10-2017 at 03:33 PM.
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02-10-2017, 05:16 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 13,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Joad
You would get enough for basic necessities by not working. You work for the luxuries and frills.
Type A's like you will be happy to work to get more material stuff.
Type B's like me will be happy to just chill on the couch.
Which is what I have been doing for the past 9 years.
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But since you're not producing anything of value that can be taxed, it won't take long for my Type A ability to purchase luxuries to be diminished so that the economy can continue to provide your Type B basic necessities. After a while we type A's will want you to be productive, because the economy can't afford you anymore. Couple that with some of my fellow type A's who might find the type B lifestyle gradually more appealing as time goes on, and you'll run out of enough type A's to keep things funded.
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02-10-2017, 05:42 PM
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Ready
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell
But since you're not producing anything of value that can be taxed, it won't take long for my Type A ability to purchase luxuries to be diminished so that the economy can continue to provide your Type B basic necessities. After a while we type A's will want you to be productive, because the economy can't afford you anymore. Couple that with some of my fellow type A's who might find the type B lifestyle gradually more appealing as time goes on, and you'll run out of enough type A's to keep things funded.
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You are assuming some things here. One is that the guaranteed wage has to be paid for with taxes. But my proposal is to pay for it with created money, as is done with quantitative easing.
Second, you assume that if people don't mostly all work, we won't have enough stuff. That is exactly the economic earthquake now shaking under your very feet--the change away from an economy of scarcity, brought to you by robotics and AI. Mass consumption will not be funded by wages that no one intends to pay because the workers are NOT NEEDED for production. We either maintain the ability to consume by other means, or just let a bunch of people pick garbage at the dumps.
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If you Love Liberty, you must Hate Trump!
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02-10-2017, 06:27 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 13,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99
You are assuming some things here. One is that the guaranteed wage has to be paid for with taxes. But my proposal is to pay for it with created money, as is done with quantitative easing.
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Well, we at least agree that QE was an exercise in printing money, but it was always meant to be short term. You guys are proposing turning it into an economic fixture and a lifestyle choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99
Second, you assume that if people don't mostly all work, we won't have enough stuff. That is exactly the economic earthquake now shaking under your very feet--the change away from an economy of scarcity, brought to you by robotics and AI. Mass consumption will not be funded by wages that no one intends to pay because the workers are NOT NEEDED for production. We either maintain the ability to consume by other means, or just let a bunch of people pick garbage at the dumps.
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Yes if people don't work, we wont have enough stuff, even the basics like clothing food and water. Since the marketplace of folks who can afford non-essentials shrinks, all of the Type A folks would be likely be required to work in jobs that support the manufacturing and delivery of essentilals. The economy shrinks, the money supply shrinks as the economy shrinks, and you'd be forced to turn to taxation to support paying folks not to work.
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02-10-2017, 07:26 PM
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Ready
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell
Well, we at least agree that QE was an exercise in printing money, but it was always meant to be short term. You guys are proposing turning it into an economic fixture and a lifestyle choice.
Yes if people don't work, we wont have enough stuff, even the basics like clothing food and water. Since the marketplace of folks who can afford non-essentials shrinks, all of the Type A folks would be likely be required to work in jobs that support the manufacturing and delivery of essentilals. The economy shrinks, the money supply shrinks as the economy shrinks, and you'd be forced to turn to taxation to support paying folks not to work.
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You've got the whole economics thing backwards. The economy doesn't shrink, it expands because more consumers are spending more money. You're assuming everyone who's now making 40 or 60K a year is going to quit for maybe 20K? Keep in mind this guarantee doesn't do anything to change the economy and people's costs structure. If they have a mortgage, they still have a mortgage. I expect the 20K* guarantee will mostly go to top up people whose unemployment has run out and can't get that much at the part time gigs they are stuck with, or who are stuck on minimun social security, or such like.
*20 K just a notional guess at how much. Maybe less, maybe more.
__________________
If you Love Liberty, you must Hate Trump!
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02-10-2017, 05:48 PM
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Persona non grata
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 12,654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell
But since you're not producing anything of value that can be taxed, it won't take long for my Type A ability to purchase luxuries to be diminished so that the economy can continue to provide your Type B basic necessities. After a while we type A's will want you to be productive, because the economy can't afford you anymore. Couple that with some of my fellow type A's who might find the type B lifestyle gradually more appealing as time goes on, and you'll run out of enough type A's to keep things funded.
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Being a Type B, I'm not going to expend any of my own effort to reply to you.
Instead I'll go with "What Don said".
http://www.politicalchat.org/showpos...7&postcount=11
__________________
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
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02-10-2017, 05:56 PM
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Persona non grata
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 12,654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell
But since you're not producing anything of value
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I've been skating like that for the past 9 years.
40 years if you count the 31 years I spent "working" for the government.
My contribution to society has been pumping my paychecks and then my pension and social security checks back into the economy. The worker bees seem to like it when I do that.
__________________
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
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02-10-2017, 06:08 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Joad
I don't care what anybody says, due to dramatic increases in worker productivity we have a surplus of labor.
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Uncontrolled and irresponsible breeding are the cause of the labor surplus. The United states has doubled it's population in the past 65 years.
We need to strictly control breeding. Having babies is NOT a right guaranteed by the constitution.
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