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11-04-2010, 10:23 AM
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Reformed Know-Nothing
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MoCo, MD
Posts: 25,919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657
OK, looking back at the question, it looks like I didn't answer it. I believe the level of compensation paid to a pastor should reflect the level of training required to hold the position (a Doctor of Divinity, roughly equal to a PHD); the responsibility for managing an organization that serves from 25 to 2500 individuals; and the visitation and counseling demands placed on the schedule. A pastor should make what a CEO of a similar size organization SHOULD make (which, for most, is considerably less than they actually make).
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In a market economy, there's nothing other than supply and demand of particular skills/abilities that should dictate what one makes. I just don't buy the pastor/CEO analogy. If the guy can walk on water (literally) or mass produce loaves and fishes, OK. But talking about walking on water and loaves and fishes is another thing altogether.
__________________
As long as the roots are not severed, all will be well in the garden.
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11-04-2010, 11:14 AM
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Loyal Opposition
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Johnson County, Kansas
Posts: 14,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
In a market economy, there's nothing other than supply and demand of particular skills/abilities that should dictate what one makes. I just don't buy the pastor/CEO analogy. If the guy can walk on water (literally) or mass produce loaves and fishes, OK. But talking about walking on water and loaves and fishes is another thing altogether.
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Finn, you just contradicted yourself. You indicated that you have a problem with a religious leader whose exorbitant lifestyle is drawn from contributions by his congregation. (So do I.) But to be consistent with the market-based analysis you set forth above, if the religious leader puts on a show and presents a message that results in contributions at a high level, isn't the market for that particular service at that level?
If the salary of a CEO is based on a market manipulated by cronyism, which artificially inflates executive compensation, it that really permitting market forces to limit executive salaries?
My point with respect to pastors was not to suggest that they should be getting million dollar bonuses and huge salaries. I was merely suggesting that when a salary approaching six figures fits within the budget of the organization, the educational background, duties, and skills justify it (in my example, the pastor did much more than preaching) I was also suggesting that the actual contribution by the CEO of a similarly sized commercial enterprise should be valued in the same ballpark.
Regards,
D-Ray
__________________
Then I'll get on my knees and pray,
We won't get fooled again; Don't get fooled again
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11-04-2010, 11:21 AM
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Reformed Know-Nothing
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MoCo, MD
Posts: 25,919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657
Finn, you just contradicted yourself. You indicated that you have a problem with a religious leader whose exorbitant lifestyle is drawn from contributions by his congregation. (So do I.) But to be consistent with the market-based analysis you set forth above, if the religious leader puts on a show and presents a message that results in contributions at a high level, isn't the market for that particular service at that level?
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Perhaps so. But what I was first referring to was the type of tele-evangelist (or radio-based) that sells salvation. To me, that reeks of hucksterism/Elmer Gantry. Despite the appeal of the free market system, financial success derived from marketing snake oil isn't a laudable enterprise, IMHO.
__________________
As long as the roots are not severed, all will be well in the garden.
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11-05-2010, 12:42 PM
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Loyal Opposition
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Johnson County, Kansas
Posts: 14,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
Perhaps so. But what I was first referring to was the type of tele-evangelist (or radio-based) that sells salvation. To me, that reeks of hucksterism/Elmer Gantry. Despite the appeal of the free market system, financial success derived from marketing snake oil isn't a laudable enterprise, IMHO.
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I don't think we really disagree here. Whether one purports to be preaching the Gospel, or a get rich quick scheme, a huckster is a thief. I was suggesting that it is not wrong for a pastor to be paid a comfortable living, when what he earns is probably below the market value for one in private industry who has similar training and similar responsibilities. Look at how much motivational speakers make - unless they live in a van down by the river.
Regards,
D-Ray
__________________
Then I'll get on my knees and pray,
We won't get fooled again; Don't get fooled again
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11-04-2010, 09:43 AM
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Area Man
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 27,407
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Have to think about this for a while.
Dave
__________________
"When the lie is so big and the fog so thick, the Republican trick can play out again....."-------Frank Zappa
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11-05-2010, 06:23 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 117
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I was at Church one day, and we were addressed by Bishop David Huskins, of the Assemblies of God. He brought this up, and with a definition that I'm *sort of* at an understanding with, but it's a bit vague.
He said that God doesn't mind people having nice things, but the bishop said that God doesn't see favor in a man of God having six cars, while his brother can't even afford a bicycle. That a man of God can have a closet full of expensive clothes when his brother doesn't have a pair of shoes. That it's not right that we give to those only our leftovers and our hand-me-downs, but to offer up our first fruits towards the happiness of others.
This has always been kind of a connundrum for me, and I think it has in part to do with my Catholic upbringing, I'm glad to see the responses here because I think that some of you may be trying to grasp at a truth here. Christianity, or religion as a whole, deals in absolute truths, and in this question, there really isn't one.
The problem with the religious versus secular mindsets from the very start, in fact, IS that mindset. Religious minds will only speak in absolute truth, while the secular mind will speak in perceived truth and thus will result in an endless argument because they are diametrically opposed from the start. But what's the absolute truth here?
Much emphasis in Christian faith reflects on tithing, the giving of the "first fruits" to His service, with the thought that the Lord will multiply what is offered, as in sowing seed. But does that justify evangelists in riches? I honestly don't know.
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11-05-2010, 06:27 AM
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Abby Normal
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 11,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamakiri
But does that justify evangelists in riches? I honestly don't know.
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I know (hand in air)!
It does not.
next question?
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11-05-2010, 07:04 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 117
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The argument starts when rich people make wealth their number one priority instead of God. They spend most of their time making wealth, spending it, and increasing it. But if you're rich and your number one priority IS God?
Quite the disparity....
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11-05-2010, 11:41 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 117
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I think that's what draws people away from organized religion in the first place....the perception of hypocrisy.
But honestly I think that most minds get it totally wrong. The Earth and everything on it was put here for people to enjoy. Sure, excesses financially would be wrong while our brethren go without, but I do not believe that a religious figure has to live in abject poverty for their words to hold currency.
I think to get to the root of faith, you have to give more regard to the message than the messenger. Contributions to any ministry are by choice.
Do you know what kind of people give to televangelism? I do, I volunteered to work the phones for a TCT Praise-A-Thon back in the spring, as an outreach project with my Church. It's not the blue haired spinster who is giving away her fortune to God while she holds a pomeranian on her lap. It's the unemployed, it's the retiree struggling to live, it's the person on their last dime and can barely afford food. I swear that as the people gave me their credit card information, that I wanted to transpose a digit just so that they wouldn't end up doing it. I prayed with these people, and the experience was very moving, one that I will never forget.
And I will say, the last thing that I will say about these people is that they were fools. That night, I saw pure faith in Christ.....which glaringly pointed out severe gaps in my own. I left after my shift, much different than when I started.
One can ruminate over whether that poor man's money went to golden cufflinks or a bottle of Dom Perrignon for a slick haired preacher, but the people that called were the true believers. If the preacher goes on a bender, I think he'll get it worse from the man upstairs than any of us ever could.
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11-05-2010, 12:27 PM
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Area Man
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 27,407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamakiri
Contributions to any ministry are by choice.
Ummmmmm--Faith Based Initiative?
Do you know what kind of people give to televangelism? I do, I volunteered to work the phones for a TCT Praise-A-Thon back in the spring, as an outreach project with my Church. It's not the blue haired spinster who is giving away her fortune to God while she holds a pomeranian on her lap. It's the unemployed, it's the retiree struggling to live, it's the person on their last dime and can barely afford food. I swear that as the people gave me their credit card information, that I wanted to transpose a digit just so that they wouldn't end up doing it. I prayed with these people, and the experience was very moving, one that I will never forget.
And I will say, the last thing that I will say about these people is that they were fools. That night, I saw pure faith in Christ.....which glaringly pointed out severe gaps in my own. I left after my shift, much different than when I started.
One can ruminate over whether that poor man's money went to golden cufflinks or a bottle of Dom Perrignon for a slick haired preacher, but the people that called were the true believers. If the preacher goes on a bender, I think he'll get it worse from the man upstairs than any of us ever could.
I agree, completely. Once my parents reached their eighies, they began being hounded by evangelist organizations seeking donations.Some of them making the most outrageous claims.
I agree that the people donating truly believe they are doing good. But, I also believe they are largely being exploited by wolves. This is one reason why I say I have faith in God and hope for an afterlife, but place little to no faith in organized religion. One is a spiritual hunger, the other is a business contrived by men.
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Perhaps you don't agree. But can you at least see my point?
Dave
__________________
"When the lie is so big and the fog so thick, the Republican trick can play out again....."-------Frank Zappa
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