My daughter says ..

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

OK, skip that, it still says it can be taught but I suppose a good way to say it is 'not as truth' - does that sound right?

Yep, not as "truth," but as one of many beliefs. IMHO, that explains Christianity (and all other religions) to a tee.

[piece-itpete]

From the link "... Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government."

Seems like nothing's changed in 200 years (except republican should be capitalized).

Absolutely!

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

Pete

[piece-itpete]

So we should teach Christainity alongside, say, Satanism?

It doesn't say that (alongside other religions) in the SC decision, at least it doesn't mention it in your posted info.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

So we should teach Christainity alongside, say, Satanism?

It doesn't say that (alongside other religions) in the SC decision, at least it doesn't mention it in your posted info.

Pete

I'm not sure I'd lump Satanism with the other world religions that would be appropriate fare in such classes, but personally I'm not threatened by the notion. All of these religions have the same fundamental basis, i.e., the human imagination.

The folks in Texas and Tennessee are trying to push the bounds of what's constitutional by advocating for Bible-centric teaching. I contend that kids these days need a lot more of the three R's than they need their parents getting their panties in a knot pushing the bounds of how much Christian theology they can shoehorn into the school day.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I'm not sure I'd lump Satanism with the other world religions that would be appropriate fare in such classes, but personally I'm not threatened by the notion. All of these religions have the same fundamental basis, i.e., the human imagination.

The folks in Texas and Tennessee are trying to push the bounds of what's constitutional by advocating for Bible-centric teaching. I contend that kids these days need a lot more of the three R's than they need their parents getting their panties in a knot pushing the bounds of how much Christian theology they can shoehorn into the school day.

What confounds me is that people are able to inject religion into a debate to distract from the real issues. Focus on the New York Muslim Cultural Center and you don't focus on what the real meaning of enacting tax cuts from next year's tax structure, on the GOP refusing to allow a vote over tax relief () and credit for small business in order to support them in hiring new employees; on a realistic view of military spending cuts; on what the GOP really means when it mentions "entitlement reform" - cutting social security benefits. Focus on religion in schools and you don't focus on the funding and ability of a curriculum to develop critical thinking skills.

We on the left are guilty of this distraction as well. We get drawn into protests over a proposed cultural center when, as a matter of law, it's going to be built. We have this desire to prove we're right, even on matters that aren't going to have any real consequence. I'm not suggesting that insertion of theology into public school classes and textbooks is not important and worthy of being addressed. I am suggesting that too often we allow the right wing to set the agenda when we would be better off choosing what issues warrant our immediate attention. For instance, once it became understood that the proponents had every right to develop their center, we should not give status to the bloggers and right wing pundits by elevating their bigotry to a national issue.

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I contend that kids these days need a lot more of the three R's .

you mean reading, riting and rhetoric?

[merrylander]

The ten commandments are a set of practical rules for the operation of any society. As for Jefferson, google his quotations, he can contradict himself. Asked if he had to chose between a government and a free press he opted for the free press. Later on he opined that anyone who formed their decision on what they read in the press would be in error.
Much as I admire Madison he was known to make the odd mistake - 1812 frex.

[finnbow]

As interesting as it may be to read quotes from the Founding Fathers, I'm of the opinion that what what they thought as individuals, though interesting, isn't all that important compared to the consensus documents they wrote together.

I am on several national consensus standards committees and my opinions on the final products of these committees may differ from the final product in some areas. Even though I may feel my position to be right (surprised???), the final written standard governs. I can harangue until I'll blue in the face (imagine that!) at how the standard could have been better or how I think the committee gave undue weight to a certain consideration, but it doesn't matter. Same goes for Federal regulations. They come with long-winded preambles to explain the decision-making, but the final regulatory text is all that counts not the hundreds of pages that precede them.

Sometimes we seem to forget that the Founding Fathers, though smart, were not perfect. How else to account for the convoluted verbiage of the second amendment? To this day, its original intent is still being argued.

[BlueStreak]

You know, I often tell people "God Bless You.", or if someone is sick, I'll offer up a prayer for them. As a young man growing up we were in church every Sunday, I went to Sunday School, Bible School, Bible Camp, I was Baptized, Confirmed, etc., etc......
If someone pressed me to prove I am a Christian, I could provide all sorts of written evidence to prove I am as squeaky clean and God-fearing as anyone. Maybe even more so than some.

Then catch me when I am drunk or angry, and you'll get to know the real me.

I suspect the same is true for most people----even the "Founders".
As great as they were, as wonderful a thing it was that they did, they were HUMAN.

For crying out loud, George Washington at the behest of the Congress, once gathered a militia and marched on Pittsburgh to literally put a gun to the heads of Americans citizens to collect taxes. Could you imagine the commotion if Obama attempted to do the same thing today?

This whole argument and the absurdity of what people like Beck and Palin assert just makes me nuts.

What is so hard to understand? America is a SECULAR nation in which we are all free to worship as we wish. Yes, the majority of Americans claim Christianity as their religion. But is America a "Christian Nation"? IMHO, the answer is, "No." The phrase "Christian Nation" implies an exclusivity and a collective endorsement of a specific religion that cannot mesh with my idea of what "Freedom of Religion" truly means or what reality supports. Religious beliefs are a personal choice, not something to be pushed on us through "peer pressure".

Dave

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

For crying out loud, George Washington at the behest of the Congress, once gathered a militia and marched on Pittsburgh to literally put a gun to the heads of Americans citizens to collect taxes. Could you imagine the commotion if Obama attempted to do the same thing today?

Dave

Reminds me of the tea party candidate for congress in Alabama who had actors playing some of the founders in commercial. The candidate complains about most things Obama, including the overbearing nature of the IRS, to which the George Washington character replied "Gather your armies." Would love to play that side by side with a reenactment of GW gathering his armies to collect taxes.

I wonder if the seditious traitor who ran that ad won his primary.

Regards,

D-Ray