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  #501  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:54 AM
ZeroJunk ZeroJunk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheltiedave View Post
Zero, why don't you use the CBO reports to buttress your arguments?
What I was telling you is that individual insurance premiums are not included in that.

The $18,500 that I paid for insurance premiums is not a tax as D-Ray pointed out in a strict sense.

It is just a product of Obamacare's effect on the middle class, which I am actually at the low end of.
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  #502  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:43 PM
sheltiedave sheltiedave is offline
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No Zero, it is the effect of you and your wife not effectively planning and managing your income, exceeding the ACA coverage cap, and triggering a nightmare reimbursement cost. You need to own this.

There is a reason many people use CPAs to tax plan, plan investments, and make recommendations on tax withholding rates, amongst other services. For no more than about $300, you would have received the proper advice, and not exceeded the $60K.

And BTW, I played with the CBO numbers you so despise, and the US tax revenue for personal income does not exceed a trillion a year for the middle class, as many define it. I would enjoy playing the numbers game with you, since you so dearly love talking about the trillion(s) in taxes heaped upon the middle class to pay for ACA.

BTW, the rough numbers would be
120 million households x 40% x $7,400 in taxes = $355,200,000,000 in taxes

Here is a nice little to to figure out where you fall based on earned income.

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

Please note that your bald lie... [QUOTE=ZeroJunk;357309]The problem then is the same as it is with the ACA. It is a one trillion dollar tax on the middle class.QUOTE] would only be true if 100% of all projected middle class tax revenues were applied for almost three years, 2.82 years if we calculated. This is why you should learn to debate using at least a few facts.

So, not a tax.
Not paid for by the middle class.
But you would be very happy to hurt those who are even worse off than you.

Now we can converse knowing there is a light shone on the truth.

Last edited by sheltiedave; 07-19-2017 at 09:02 PM.
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  #503  
Old 07-19-2017, 07:41 PM
ZeroJunk ZeroJunk is offline
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Only 6 million people bought insurance and actually paid premiums through the ACA last year and only 6.4 million people this year. So, you are full of shit in that regard.

The rest of the ACA beneficiaries were added to 74.5 million who are on Medicaid.

Who pays for that ? The "rich" ? Or, the Chinese ?

What do you think is the cause of the $20 trillion dollar debt ?

Got any children or grandchildren you are keen to saddle with that ?
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  #504  
Old 07-19-2017, 08:06 PM
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bobabode bobabode is offline
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[QUOTE=sheltiedave;357488]No Zero, it is the effect of you and your wife not effectively planning and managing your income, exceeding the ACA coverage cap, and triggering a nightmare reimbursement cost. You need to own this.

There is a reason many people use CPAs to tax plan, plan investments, and make recommendations on tax withholding rates, amongst other services. For no more than about $300, you would have received the proper advice, and not exceeded the $60K.

And BTW, I played with the CBO numbers you so despise, and the US tax revenue for personal income does not exceed a trillion a year for the middle class, as many define it. I would enjoy playing the numbers game with you, since you so dearly love talking about the trillion(s) in taxes heaped upon the middle class to pay for ACA.

BTW, the rough numbers would be
120 million households x 40% x $7,400 in taxes = $355,200,000 in taxes

Here is a nice little to to figure out where you fall based on earned income.

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

Please note that your bald lie...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
The problem then is the same as it is with the ACA. It is a one trillion dollar tax on the middle class.QUOTE] would only be true if 100% of all projected middle class tax revenues were applied for almost three years, 2.82 years if we calculated. This is why you should learn to debate using at least a few facts.

So, not a tax.
Not paid for by the middle class.
But you would be very happy to hurt those who are even worse off than you.

Now we can converse knowing there is a light shone on the truth.
Good post, Dave. Thanks.
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  #505  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:09 PM
sheltiedave sheltiedave is offline
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About CBO
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The Distribution of Household Income and Federal Taxes,****2013
June 8, 2016
Report
51361-home-cover.png

In 2013, households in the top, middle, and bottom income quintiles received 53, 14, and 5 percent, respectively, of the nation's before-tax income and paid 69, 9, and 1 percent, respectively, of federal taxes.

Last edited by sheltiedave; 07-19-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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  #506  
Old 07-19-2017, 09:17 PM
sheltiedave sheltiedave is offline
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That paragraph is for Zero, who cannot fathom how to research basic information from a CBO report.

Please note the top 20% of household incomes received 53% of earned income and paid 69% of all federal taxes.

The bottom 60% of household incomes paid approximately 15% of all federal taxes, with interpolation.

That means the lower upper class, the second highest quintile percentile, pays 16% of federal taxes, with interpolation of the remainder.

Broken out further, by quintiles, this would mean - going from lowest to highest - the percentage of federal taxes paid was 1%, 5%, 9%, 16%, and 69% by segments.

No matter how you slice and dice that raw data, there is no sustainable argument that ACA subsidies funded by federal taxes were an unfair burden borne mainly by the middle class. That is both a fallacy and a political, rather than an economic, red herring.

Last edited by sheltiedave; 07-19-2017 at 09:29 PM.
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  #507  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:47 AM
ZeroJunk ZeroJunk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheltiedave View Post
That paragraph is for Zero, who cannot fathom how to research basic information from a CBO report.

Please note the top 20% of household incomes received 53% of earned income and paid 69% of all federal taxes.

The bottom 60% of household incomes paid approximately 15% of all federal taxes, with interpolation.

That means the lower upper class, the second highest quintile percentile, pays 16% of federal taxes, with interpolation of the remainder.

Broken out further, by quintiles, this would mean - going from lowest to highest - the percentage of federal taxes paid was 1%, 5%, 9%, 16%, and 69% by segments.

No matter how you slice and dice that raw data, there is no sustainable argument that ACA subsidies funded by federal taxes were an unfair burden borne mainly by the middle class. That is both a fallacy and a political, rather than an economic, red herring.
This is for Dave who apparently doesn't know the difference between federal income tax and FICA .


Nor, understand the increase between health care costs through employee contribution to employer provided or paid outright since the inception of Obamacare.

Last edited by ZeroJunk; 07-20-2017 at 05:50 AM.
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  #508  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:43 AM
sheltiedave sheltiedave is offline
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Zero, you do not understand. I am trying to goad you to go beyond the first sentence.

Publish the figures, preferably from the CBO, for the entirety of ACA, as available. Have them broken out by quintiles, as the CBO publishes. Do some little math tricks, sort the figures, state them here so people can check.

What I did was a very basic donkey switch, as most people know that
a) federal taxes are a much larger bite from your check than FICA
b) if federal taxes don't meet your threshold, neither will the smaller FICA
c) tracking and accounting tables for Federal taxes are immediately available and formatted.

If you are not willing to support your argument by facts and figures in any fashion like this, then all you are is a carnival barker standing in front of an empty tent.
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  #509  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:49 AM
sheltiedave sheltiedave is offline
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Please post the figures so they are easily understood, like this. Also, please explain in detail how this flat tax specifically targets the middle class and why this section of the population needs relief in the form of additional subsidized supports.

http://www.montana.edu/hr/documents/...FICA-QandA.pdf

FICA and Medicare Tax (Social Security Tax) Q & A

What is FICA tax? (Federal Insurance Contribution Act) FICA Provides benefits for retired workers and their dependents as well as for disabled workers and their dependents.

What is Medicare tax? Government service that helps provide healthcare for senior citizens and disabled U.S. citizens.

Who has to pay FICA/Medicare tax? All employees except for the following: 1.) Any working student registered and attending classes worth 6 (six) or more credit hours 2.) Qualifying Nonresident Alien employees under tax treaty.

How are FICA and Medicare tax calculated? FICA is 6.2% of Taxable Gross for employees and 6.2% for employers. Medicare is 1.45% of Taxable Gross up to $200,000 and 2.35% on wages over $200,000

What is the FICA cap for the current year? 2014- $117,000 There is no cap Medicare

I am receiving Social Security Benefits do I still have to pay FICA and Medicare Tax on wages I earn? Generally, yes.



Additional questions, Please refer to Publication 15 available at www.irs.gov

Last edited by sheltiedave; 07-20-2017 at 06:53 AM.
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  #510  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:22 AM
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nailer nailer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheltiedave View Post
That paragraph is for Zero, who cannot fathom how to research basic information from a CBO report.

Please note the top 20% of household incomes received 53% of earned income and paid 69% of all federal taxes.

The bottom 60% of household incomes paid approximately 15% of all federal taxes, with interpolation.

That means the lower upper class, the second highest quintile percentile, pays 16% of federal taxes, with interpolation of the remainder.

Broken out further, by quintiles, this would mean - going from lowest to highest - the percentage of federal taxes paid was 1%, 5%, 9%, 16%, and 69% by segments.

No matter how you slice and dice that raw data, there is no sustainable argument that ACA subsidies funded by federal taxes were an unfair burden borne mainly by the middle class. That is both a fallacy and a political, rather than an economic, red herring.
Having used CBO reports numerous times during my career and been a primary contributor to many vetted reports involving analysis of hard and soft data, document research, lots of interviews with those who were doing what we were researching and many fun kicking tire field trips; I see a few weaknesses (fatal?) in your analysis and your conclusion is an opinion not supported by the analysis presented.

FWIW, goading someone is not the way to encourage meaningful discussion.
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Last edited by nailer; 07-20-2017 at 09:35 AM.
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