Retiring head of Mossad echoes Abama.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Combwork

"To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation."


Ok, but although Jews have always held their belief in the promised land, it wasn't until 1948 that they actually got it. I've no time for Islam, it's a dangerous intolerant religion but forcing Palestinians out of their homes to make way for the nation of Israel was guaranteed to make the Palestinians consider Jews as their enemy. Could Israel, founded by force on 'stolen land' be considered by the people who lived there first as a "fictional designation"?

Amen.

Let's see; A foreign entity, in this case the UN, decides the time has come for a bunch of foreigners, in this case European Jews, to return to their "Promised Land". A claim that has roots nowhere but in Judeo-Christian religious beliefs. Your family owns a sizable piece of property there, and has for centuries. Next, these supposed "chosen people" flood your homeland, whatever you want to call it, roll out the bulldozers, tanks and soldiers and start claiming their "God-given ancestral right" to YOUR property that your family has owned for centuries. You become angry and attempt to fight back. You are branded a "terrorist", denounced, shoved off of YOUR land, shot at and either killed or jailed if you resist.

I think we need to give Tennessee, Michigan and Ohio back to the Native Americans. It is, after all their ancestral home and I'm sure they can claim some spiritual "belief" that those states belong to them. So pack up guys, you're moving. Resist and we'll brand you as terrorists and kill you.

See how that works?

Dave

P.s. Maybe if the Palestinians had the "Right to Bear Arms", the picture would be a little different? Or has the Israeli government stripped them of that?

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Combwork

"To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation."


Ok, but although Jews have always held their belief in the promised land, it wasn't until 1948 that they actually got it. I've no time for Islam, it's a dangerous intolerant religion but forcing Palestinians out of their homes to make way for the nation of Israel was guaranteed to make the Palestinians consider Jews as their enemy. Could Israel, founded by force on 'stolen land' be considered by the people who lived there first as a "fictional designation"?

Back after WW I the League of Nations established a mandate to find a "home" for the Jewish people - note that it was a "home" not a nation. The area of that mandate covered what is present day Israel, Jordan and the Golan Heights.

Much of what is present day Tel Aviv was purchased with real money from the owners of the land. Lord Balfour - in his infinite wisdom - gave the Golan Heights to Syria (now there is a real sweetheart) and all of what he named TransJordan to the Hashemite kings.

Things more or less stayed peaceful but then got ugly, no one (including Britain) came out of it all smelling of roses. After the Holocaust they decided that they were done with being pushed around, the result being Israel. As to our being their defender they seem to have been able to take care of themselves. I used to work with a former Israeli air force pilot, how a guy his size handled a jet fighter I have no idea.

Despite all the conspiracy wingnuts no Jew ever knocked down our embassies or twin towers or the Pentagon. No Jew has ever wanted to convert me, although at one time our son was dating a Jewish girl with her parents blessing.

I am still waiting to hear all those peace loving muslims condemn the actions of the jihadist terrorists. But I am not holding my breath.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by merrylander

Back after WW I the League of Nations established a mandate to find a "home" for the Jewish people - note that it was a "home" not a nation. The area of that mandate covered what is present day Israel, Jordan and the Golan Heights.

Much of what is present day Tel Aviv was purchased with real money from the owners of the land. Lord Balfour - in his infinite wisdom - gave the Golan Heights to Syria (now there is a real sweetheart) and all of what he named TransJordan to the Hashemite kings.

Things more or less stayed peaceful but then got ugly, no one (including Britain) came out of it all smelling of roses. After the Holocaust they decided that they were done with being pushed around, the result being Israel. As to our being their defender they seem to have been able to take care of themselves. I used to work with a former Israeli air force pilot, how a guy his size handled a jet fighter I have no idea.

Despite all the conspiracy wingnuts no Jew ever knocked down our embassies or twin towers or the Pentagon. No Jew has ever wanted to convert me, although at one time our son was dating a Jewish girl with her parents blessing.

I am still waiting to hear all those peace loving muslims condemn the actions of the jihadist terrorists. But I am not holding my breath.

I understand what you're saying. But, for my part, here is what I don't get...

"Back after WW I the League of Nations established a mandate to find a "home" for the Jewish people................."

Why? Why in the hell, did ANYONE, EVER have to "find a home for the Jewish people"? Whether it was the League of Nations, the UN, or whomever....What has the point in "finding a home" for these folks ever been?
Why can't they just go live wherever they end up, or relocate of their own volition like everyone else? Why did we have to find a spot for them, pave the way for them to go live there and then spend the next several decades fighting to protect their little Zionist paradise? What is that? Have we ever done this for anyone else? Relocated them because they wanted to be relocated, that is?

Hell, even the Mormons only ended up in Utah because they were run out of everywhere else and there was no one there at the time to run them off again. And they reached Utah under their own steam.

Ahhhhh, but Israel? Ooooooo, now that's different..............Really? Why?

The whole thing is just bizarre.

Dave

[whell]

The history gets complicated, and I won't try to pretend to grasp all of it. But, it boils down to this: the Jews began to scatter after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel. This dates back to around 750 BC os so. The tribes were already split due to who wouldn't accept who as rightful king of all of the tribes. But when the Assyrians conquered the kingdom of Isreal, they sent the Jews packing. Some went to Egypt or Babylon. Then the Persians conquered Babylon and sent the Jews there back to Jarusalem.

500 or so years later, the Maccabees retook Judea and the Jewish faith had a home again. That lasted for about 100 years or so until the Roams conquered and subjected the whole area.

At the end of the day, the concept of establishing a Jewish state was an attempt to found a modern Jewish state in the area that was once the Kingdom of Israel. Israelis had been scattered all over the Middle East and Europe for centuries.

Fast forward to modern history and the Balfour Declaration, there was already a formal effort to create a Jewish homeland in the area following the First World War. Anti-Semitism aws already alive and awell, and the thought was the security for the Jews could only be attained via a seperate state. The atrocities suffered by the Jews at the hands of the Nazi's, as well as Harry Truman getting behind the effort, made it happen.

[BlueStreak]

But, see, that's the whole thing........750BC? Or even "250 years later", which would still be over 2,500 years ago? Have you considered how many populations have moved around since then? But, no one really cares about any of them, do they? Any major efforts to return people of Mongolian descent that may be living in Europe and Russia to their "ancestral homeland"? Are we going to annex large portions of the U.S. and Canada, and hand it back to Native North Americans telling current residents to just bugger off or face a bulldozer and the barrel of a gun? No. Are we offering to seize control of a big chunk of Africa and pay passage for African Americans to go home and then send them billions every year whilst pledging military support----indefinitely? No.

So, tell me once again why propping up Israel is so important? A "stabilizing force"? Really?

Dave

[merrylander]

One word - Nunavut.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

But, see, that's the whole thing........750BC? Or even "250 years later", which would still be over 2,500 years ago? Have you considered how many populations have moved around since then? But, no one really cares about any of them, do they? Any major efforts to return people of Mongolian descent that may be living in Europe and Russia to their "ancestral homeland"? Are we going to annex large portions of the U.S. and Canada, and hand it back to Native North Americans telling current residents to just bugger off or face a bulldozer and the barrel of a gun? No. Are we offering to seize control of a big chunk of Africa and pay passage for African Americans to go home and then send them billions every year whilst pledging military support----indefinitely? No.

So, tell me once again why propping up Israel is so important? A "stabilizing force"? Really?

Dave

I think we should all move back to the Great Rift Valley in Kenya.

[Dondilion]

Whatever the reasons (Uganda was once purposed) the state of Israel is a reality notwithstanding its disputed borders. What I detest is the inability to have fearless discussions in the US re Israel.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

I think we need to give Tennessee, Michigan and Ohio back to the Native Americans. It is, after all their ancestral home and I'm sure they can claim some spiritual "belief" that those states belong to them. So pack up guys, you're moving. Resist and we'll brand you as terrorists and kill you.

1. You catch on fast.
2. I'll take Manhattan.
3. Israel is just a big, man made, pseudo-reservation.
4. I'm a BIG fan of letting them see if they can go it alone.

They should be made to realize that their "Never Again" propaganda vitriol exists at the will and pleasure of the United States of America: and we're tired of being the big dog whilst they yap as a rabid toy from within the protective fence that we provide.

Anti-semitic? No. Behavior based? Hell yes. (When Israel ceases to create problems, there'll be a lot less.)

As it is unlikely that even a made up nation will be retroactively removed from the planet as an entity, perhaps Israelis should be ultimately convinced that what they squat upon is a gift -- not an entitlement right -- via applied political pressure to revert to less ridiculous borders.

1967 is a start...

Saddam's Iraq was a bigger stability factor than Israel has ever been.

[merrylander]

Learn summat new every day, I was not aware that we had any part in the six-day war.