Class Warfare?

[JonL]

From Yahoo:

Over the last decade, the share of U.S. national income taken home by workers has plummeted to a record low.



Seems it's been successfully waged for quite a while already. If this trend continues, the backlash may not be pretty.

[flacaltenn]

THat's absolutely ghastly.. And that's why I posted that bummer of a thread on the market and the economy. Again -- we see the same problem.

But instead of stoking the class war fire, I'd be seriously trying to reconstruct a REAL economy.

It's a disaster out there bud. BarBQueing (what's left of) the rich ain't gonna fix that.

Here's a hint. Need to make cheap offshore labor irrelevant. Ideas? There are substantial answers to that riddle JonL.

[CarlV]

Yep, take a look from 1980 on, it is why they call it the trickle down theory lol.



Hmm, looks like time to make them Bush tax cuts for the wealthy permanent, that will save us all.





Carl

[JonL]

I'm not stoking the class war fire, simply pointing out the obvious. The working class has suffered greatly over the last decade. The wealthy class (what's left of them????) has amassed more wealth over the last decade. Those are facts. I'm not stoking the class war fire, I'm simply pointing out that it would be reasonable to surmise that when the pain becomes unbearable, there will be a reaction. So, I agree. What do we do to resolve this inequity, and why is it that the wealthy class who have been the beneficiaries of this trend should be absolved of any responsibility in its rectification?

[flacaltenn]

But JonL:

You're INSINUATING that all those dissappearing SALARIES (not wealth a big distinction) got STOLEN by the rich. When in reality, those jobs were lost to an international playing field getting leveled and a reluctance for Americans to prepare the economy for the "things that we can do better".. LOTS of blame in that game, little advantage for doing it.. The INSINUATION without a theory for the theft IS the class warfare game.

Fact is, the bottom 20% got to be UNDEREMPLOYED from where they were in the 70s. Let's think back. That was BEFORE the desktop PC. How many secretaries, fileclerks, tech publications, accounting people, ect got DECIMATED by the COMPUTER? As a matter of fact take a close look at your graph. My 1st desktop was circa 1983. Do you see the decline from there? Look at the rightside graph from CarlV. There was a brief period between 79 and 82 before the decline of the bottom 40%tiles.

Did you even ponder the question of how to make cheap international labor irrelevent? Or do you just want to string up the top 1% tonight? That's why the stupid REPUBs are gonna whip your DEM asses in debate. Because they see OTHER contributing factors that DOMINATE the explanation for those curves -- and you guys don't. I'm trying to help keep the competition even here. Even give you an edge.

And CarlV: Your graph STOPS at 2007, the absolute historical peak of the US economy for a reason.. Someones' schilling that data for a political advantage. Take a peek POST 2008 and ask yourself. "am i crazy enough to lose 1/2 of everything I own every 10 years" or am i content to be on those less volatile curves that MOST of us all are on?

[JonL]

There you go yet AGAIN, Flacaltenn. You have a preconceived notion of what a "liberal" thinks, or what a "leftist" thinks, or what a "progressive" thinks. You have these neat little bundles in your mind defining these groups. Hell, I don't know what ANY of those labels means, or which one I might be, and even if I am one of them, I sure as hell don't share exactly every viewpoint someone else in that supposed group might have. In my first post, I didn't insinuate anything. I simply pointed out that the working class has suffered, and that there might someday be a backlash. And that backlash could be a very ugly class war.

In my next post, I did note that wealthy benefitted from the trend. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that the wealthy benefitted from a parallel trend, because it MAY be that the causes of the two trends are disparate, but I doubt it.

I never said nor insinuated anything about theft. That's you arguing against your own preconceived view of us "liberal/leftist/progressives." I'm not going to take your bait.

You do offer a few snippets of theories as to why the trend is what it is, but you also say that there's nothing to be gained by playing the "blame game." I guess when you identify a potential cause, it's a valid theory. When a leftist/liberal/progressive tries to understand and identify a potential cause, it's a "blame game," or stoking the fires of class warfare. And then you get your panties in a bunch yet again about "stringing up the top 1%" You just make stuff up to argue against. You're really something.

So, now let's talk about reality. You raised some points that jobs were lost overseas, and that the influence of PCs eliminated the need for certain skills. Now, let's see... who benefits from those trends? Not the workers, that's for sure. Oh, yeah, I know. It's the senior executives whos compensation is (sometimes) based on short-term performance. It's the large stockholders who benefit from increasing profits. In other words, it's that top 20%, who benefits and mostly the top 1%. That top 20% or 1% also happens to have a lot of influence on policy in this country. So... my question for you is: How do we address this without having some impact on the top 20% or top 1%? Before you give yourself another wedgie... I am NOT calling for class warfare, nor am I calling for stringing up the top 1%. I'm simply noting that the issues that YOU have raised - overseas cheap labor, and improved worker productivity due to technology - have benefitted the wealthy and ruling class, so how do we get them on board with changes that very likely will cause some reduction in their income and/or wealth?

[flacaltenn]

Dam JonL:

You were soooo close. Had me cheering you on there.. But at the very last, you validated all my hunches about your motives.

I am NOT calling for class warfare, nor am I calling for stringing up the top 1%. I'm simply noting that the issues that YOU have raised - overseas cheap labor, and improved worker productivity due to technology - have benefitted the wealthy and ruling class, so how do we get them on board with changes that very likely will cause some reduction in their income and/or wealth?

See that last bolded part means that you've bought into notion that the FIX involves taking from them. Like it's just recutting the pie. But if I'm right about all these legitimate external pressures on the US workforce, NONE of the fixes involves redistribution.

Look - just today J.C. Penney stock took a $1B INCREASE in net worth on the market. An ASTOUNDING 18% (i think).. WHY? Because they hired one measly Apple executive. THOUSANDS of intelligient investors believe this ONE GUY can turn the company around.
HOW MUCH JONL: is this guy worth in salary? (1% of that company increase would be $10M, if he lives up to the expectation, maybe $40M)

NONE of that was redistributed, but it illustrates what we VALUE today in business and politics and that is VISION and PERFORMANCE.

Disappointed that you haven't tackled the question I posed to you about how to make cheap foreign labor irrelevant. Because THAT would be the secret weapon to rebuilding America's job base. The hint is that it includes a Henry Ford style paradigm switch about how stuff is built and assembled and farmed. The very MATERIALS we use. The robotics part of the problem. The NANOTECHNOLOGY that goes with new materials. Genetic engineering for energy production, food production, healthcare. The more serious problem than losing our jobs to cheap labor abroad is that we REFUSE to step up to the challenge of doing the more difficult stuff than making tee shirts.

Our education system is also failing to produce the tech and science leadership to make that possible. A first priority if I were King would be to redesign education so that Virtual Schools could let kids learn at their own pace. (a development currently stymied by Jurassic Park era unions). So that the science/techies/leaders are not stymied and bored to death by "level outcomes" in the classrooms. That technology alone is GOLDEN. An honest teacher would recognize that.

The foreigners are not only eating our jobs. They are taking our slots in our graduate schools!!! Soon they won't need OUR schools either.

And you worry about how you're gonna "take" from the ones who are TRYING to shift our industries to compete in this mess? Is that REALLY your PRIME concern? BTW: anyone who just casually drops "the ruling class" into a conversion maybe protests a little too much about getting pegged.. Just a hint..

[JonL]

You're looking through your lens again. I'm NOT saying that the "fix" (if there is one) involves redistribution or taking from anyone. What I am saying (and I think it is obvious) is this: (I'll lay it out nice and simple for you.)

1. The wealthy and highly-paid executives have tremendous power over business activities and national policy.

2. Most people act most of the time out of self-interest. The wealthy and corporate executives are no exception.

3. Given 1 and 2, it would be logical to assume that the current state of affairs - reduced income for workers, lots of overseas labor - has benefitted the wealthy and corporate executives. Otherwise they would have pursued paths that didn't lead to where we are.

4. Given 3, if worker income rises and there is less overseas labor, it stands to reason that it is likely that the wealthy and corporate executives will suffer some diminution in wealth and income, otherwise they would have already pursued strategies that increase the lot of the domestic worker.

OK, get it? I'm not saying that TAKING from the wealthy is the method or even the desired outcome. I'm not saying REDISTRIBUTION is the method or even the desired outcome. If the wealthy could stay just as wealthy as they are, and the rest of us could get up to where maybe the 30%ers are... that'd be just peachy.

BUT... I don't think that's possible. If the current situation didn't benefit the wealthy, it wouldn't exist. Plain and simple. So the converse is undoubtedly true. If the current situation changes, it is likely to be at the detriment (even if slight) to the wealthy. Hurting the wealthy isn't the goal here, but I cannot see how it wouldn't happen.

Seems that some of your ideas about investing in new technology and changing the way the educational system works would require - gasp - government investment and intervention. Oh the horror.

Don't blame the current educational system on the unions or the teachers. How about the bizarrely named "no child left behind" unfunded mandate that requires standardized testing up the wazoo and makes it absolutely impossible to do some of the things in education that you propose? How does state subsidized higher education fit into your world view? How about the fact that even state schools are now getting priced out of the range of many?

Look - just today J.C. Penney stock took a $1B INCREASE in net worth on the market....
NONE of that was redistributed, but it illustrates what we VALUE today in business and politics and that is VISION and PERFORMANCE.

C'mon. Not only was none of that redistributed, it also isn't real! That $1B increase in market capitalization is a paper number. (And it isn't "Net Worth.") It's based on a portion of the outstanding shares of the company trading at a higher price today than they traded at yesterday. The market cap is about $7.5B. If every stockholder decided to sell their stock tomorrow, what do you think the market cap would be? Not $7.5B, that's for sure. I don't begrudge highly competent people making a lot of money. If this guy can increase the corporation's PROFITS by $1B a year, he's worth some money. The fact that a bunch of Wall Street speculators bid up the stock today doesn't mean the guy is worth a damn thing. All that happened today is that some old speculators got really lucky, and some new speculators are guessing that it'll get even better before it gets worse. No value was added to society.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

THat's absolutely ghastly.. And that's why I posted that bummer of a thread on the market and the economy. Again -- we see the same problem.

But instead of stoking the class war fire, I'd be seriously trying to reconstruct a REAL economy.

It's a disaster out there bud. BarBQueing (what's left of) the rich ain't gonna fix that.

Here's a hint. Need to make cheap offshore labor irrelevant. Ideas? There are substantial answers to that riddle JonL.

Ooo, Oooo! I know! We make offshore labor irrelevant by following the Walker/Kasich model---Strip our workers of their ability to defend themselves.
Then, once you've accomplished that, you can slowly make them just as cheap and servile as any Chinaman living under Communism. FINALLY, the poor abused and downtrodden businessman will at last be FREE to do as he wishes.......All will be wonderful in the Right Wing Utopia then, buddy boy! You Betcha!!!
FREEDOM!!!!! FREEDOM!!!!!!

(Cue up "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" and get those flags a waivin'! The Gippers minions are on the march!)

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Colllege grads of the world unite!

Pete