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  #21  
Old 07-24-2011, 08:27 AM
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BlueStreak BlueStreak is offline
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Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
All this talk of coercion puzzles me, I do not feel compelled to drive on one side of the road, rather than down the middle, common sense tells me the latter is suicidal. I do not feel the long arm of goverment in my bedroom, it would get cut off if it tried. The basic rules of society are by and large eminently sensible and where they are not they tend to be ignored. I don't find taxes onerous considering what they provide. I do not feel any need to rant and rave against the government beyond what my vote does. If the majority disagrees with me so be it, one day they will come to their senses.
+1. And, there you have it.

Dave
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2011, 04:37 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657 View Post
You're cold brother. Interestingly, many of the conservatives who reject evolution also embrace economic Darwinism - the survival of the fittest. Some of us would see that as survival of the creatures who place profits above all other values. Concern for the environment, concern for the plight of working people, concern for the community are all signs of weakness, unless such concern can be leveraged to enhance profits.

I wonder what a society would look like if it was based on the golden rule stated in the Bible rather than the one that states "them that's got the gold makes the rules."

Regards,

D-Ray
Don't think ANY economic conservatives "embrace economic Darwinism". They DO however recognize that an individual's economic status is largely the result of a bunch of VOLUNTARY choices over which strangers SHOULD NOT have dictatorial control... The INVOLUNTARY choices are the ones we should focus our "social justice" on..

Let's put some concrete to this.. Public Housing.. We REQUIRE a bunch of stuff from folks that live in public housing. We require that they give up their 2nd Amend. rights in some cases. We require that they give up certain 4th and 5th amendments (inspections and admin access) that others are not asked to give up. Many grannies have been booted from public housing because some niece or nephew was peddling dope from her door. I THINK -- that public housing OUGHT TO BE contigient on keeping your kids in SCHOOL until they get a diploma --- but we can't ask THAT can WE????

So how do you make a UNIVERSAL "contract" with people you don't know, will never meet and have no mutual influence? Those things don't phase the lefties.. They LOVE UNIVERSAL solutions.. But even in the case of the altruistic, all-loving, all-caring govt --- they ask for shit in return for handouts. One size fits all solutions to every ill. Heck they can make Rhodes scholars out of kids with Crack moms..

Same in the private charities -- Kind of... You might be asked to praise the lord in exchange for a meal. Or to help sweep the stairwells -- the kinda of stuff that causes holy revolution to break out if you tried that crap in PUBLIC housing..

MY humble opinion of the social contract is that you work for better options for people striving to do the right things. Like choices in public education for parents whogiveashit. And real freedom to drive a cab.. Not just a job for guys who have an uncle in City Hall.

And anyone that falls by the wayside needs one-on-one time -- not just a check and some cheese -- to fix their problems..

It's the diff between the functional, the "couldbe" functional, the "usedtobe" functional, and the dysfunctional that makes the idea of a UNIVERSAL social contract a non-starting pipedream...

Can we ask you not to break-dance or gang-bang your way thru high school til you predictably drop-out? NO - we can't.. Because of respect for individual soveignty -- you know -- that old dead LIBERAL concept that died with heart of the Democrat party....

Last edited by flacaltenn; 07-24-2011 at 04:44 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2011, 04:59 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
All this talk of coercion puzzles me, I do not feel compelled to drive on one side of the road, rather than down the middle, common sense tells me the latter is suicidal. I do not feel the long arm of goverment in my bedroom, it would get cut off if it tried. The basic rules of society are by and large eminently sensible and where they are not they tend to be ignored. I don't find taxes onerous considering what they provide. I do not feel any need to rant and rave against the government beyond what my vote does. If the majority disagrees with me so be it, one day they will come to their senses.
That has to be one of most misguided epic poems to blind allegiance to govt that I've ever read..

If you truly believe that your one vote guarantees the effective and ethical administration of justice -- you are one clueless dude. If you believe that your taxes ought to be supporting huge Brazilian oil companies and foreign jobs -- you're a hypocite for trying to find vanishing "American products". And if you believe it's "eminently sensible" to condemn most inner school children to a public education monopoly that has criminally low expectations for them -- I pity you...

Sorry man -- If you want to join a union and see your potential wages go to folks who should have been fired ages ago because that's your personal view of "social fairness" then PLEASE have at it. I'm not stopping you.. But NEVER assume that I'm going to one day "come to my senses" and join you in that endevour..

I've been EXTREMELY pissed off for the past week. Can't watch the news or even successfully interact with other human beings right now.. Never mind signing up for pledges that we can't keep as whole society...

Might need a time-out..

Last edited by flacaltenn; 07-24-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2011, 05:15 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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Here's the daily rundown on why the concept of simple UNIVERSAL social contract is more complicated than it appears...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-01/p..._s=PM:POLITICS

Quote:
Under the law, which takes effect on July 1, the Florida Department of Children and Family Services will be required to conduct the drug tests on adults applying to the federal Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program. The aid recipients would be responsible for the cost of the screening, which they would recoup in their assistance if they qualify. Those who fail the required drug testing may designate another individual to receive the benefits on behalf of their children.
Am I HAPPY about this version of "the contract"? Heck no..

ASK folks to voluntarily commit to drug rehab. Offer to pay for counseling and the rehab. That's all that you can do besides catch them using and toss them in jail.. Another not so loving choice eh?

Testing ALL welfare reciepients is a degrading assumption isn't it?

This societal triage thingy ain't as easy as folks imagine..
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  #25  
Old 07-24-2011, 05:42 PM
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BlueStreak BlueStreak is offline
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"Heck they can make Rhodes scholars out of kids with Crack moms.."

I thought it was YOU that could take any group of inner city kids and turn them into Chemical Engineers?

"And if you believe it's "eminently sensible" to condemn most inner school children to a public education monopoly that has criminally low expectations for them..."

I think success is up to individual drive and ambition. So, in lieu of public education, which worked out pretty good for me and very well for you, apparently, just what do you propose? Are you ready to pay for all of those kids to attend private school? Because their parent(s) can't. How about jobs? And not shitty, worthless, low wage jobs that leave people applying for food stamps despite the fact that they work, but gainful employment for the parents of those kids? Seems to me that that would solve a lot of these issues. Then, they could pay their own way. Oh, that's right, the business community finds wages like that to be completely intolerable. Oh, well. Looks like we're stuck paying for it through our taxes. And, you know what that means..............

Anyhow, the "Social Contract" to which we refer is really very basic and simple.
Like it or not, we are a village. A village that grows more and more interconnected everyday. Each man living as an island may have worked somewhat, a hundred years ago, but it is as gone as the last Mohican now. And it aint comin' back. EVER.

Dave
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Last edited by BlueStreak; 07-24-2011 at 06:37 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-24-2011, 05:50 PM
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BlueStreak BlueStreak is offline
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Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post

Sorry man -- If you want to join a union and see your potential wages go to folks who should have been fired ages ago because that's your personal view of "social fairness" then PLEASE have at it. I'm not stopping you.. But NEVER assume that I'm going to one day "come to my senses" and join you in that endevour..
From what I've seen.....Most union jobs pay WAY more and have far, far better benefits than non-union jobs, even the ones running the "incentive pay" scam. (They start you off at half the pay and maybe make up some of it if you really break your back. I've seen it with my own eyes.) If this wasn't true, then why would any employer so vehemently oppose unionization? Productivity? Nonsense. I've worked in both environments. And seen darn little difference in productivity. It's about the pay and the pay alone.

Dave
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Last edited by BlueStreak; 07-24-2011 at 05:52 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-24-2011, 08:35 PM
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JCricket JCricket is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post
That has to be one of most misguided epic poems to blind allegiance to govt that I've ever read..

If you truly believe that your one vote guarantees the effective and ethical administration of justice -- you are one clueless dude. If you believe that your taxes ought to be supporting huge Brazilian oil companies and foreign jobs -- you're a hypocite for trying to find vanishing "American products". And if you believe it's "eminently sensible" to condemn most inner school children to a public education monopoly that has criminally low expectations for them -- I pity you...

Sorry man -- If you want to join a union and see your potential wages go to folks who should have been fired ages ago because that's your personal view of "social fairness" then PLEASE have at it. I'm not stopping you.. But NEVER assume that I'm going to one day "come to my senses" and join you in that endevour..

I've been EXTREMELY pissed off for the past week. Can't watch the news or even successfully interact with other human beings right now.. Never mind signing up for pledges that we can't keep as whole society...

Might need a time-out..
Okay, where did you get your info for firing union folks? I'd bet a lot it is an off the cuff stereotype statement filled and powered with hate and fear. Not much sense in a generalized statement like that for sure.

Need a time out? Yep, I think so.
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  #28  
Old 07-24-2011, 09:25 PM
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bhunter bhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post
Here's the daily rundown on why the concept of simple UNIVERSAL social contract is more complicated than it appears...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-01/p..._s=PM:POLITICS



Am I HAPPY about this version of "the contract"? Heck no..

ASK folks to voluntarily commit to drug rehab. Offer to pay for counseling and the rehab. That's all that you can do besides catch them using and toss them in jail.. Another not so loving choice eh?

Testing ALL welfare reciepients is a degrading assumption isn't it?

This societal triage thingy ain't as easy as folks imagine..
And is something entirely different than the concept of merely good neighbor "social contract" and norms that Merrylander had in mind. The depth and breadth of using social contract theory as justification for government expansion knows no bounds. That is precisely the problem—it is indeed slippery on them thar hills.
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  #29  
Old 07-24-2011, 10:51 PM
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BlueStreak BlueStreak is offline
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Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post
Never mind signing up for pledges that we can't keep as whole society...
Dude, sometimes pledges are shortsighted and should never have been bothered with in the first place. (As in, "I signed it just to get elected.")

Signing the Norquist pledge is as silly as a candidate signing a pledge stating he/she will never send our kids into combat. You have no idea what the future holds, or what you may have to do even if it goes against your own personal beliefs. Life just doesn't work that way. And just because someone finds himself/herself having to do something they promised they wouldn't, doesn't necessarily make them a liar. And that's not a partisan thing, that goes for anyone.

At least that's how I see it. You may disagree.

Dave
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2011, 11:08 PM
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CarlV CarlV is offline
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It would be grand thing if our GOP friends grew a pair and told that dude to kiss off. What's he going to do, become a Democrat?



Carl
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