TaxCheat Geitner -- Hand in the Till

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Yeah, spending the SS money and cutting the military like there'd never be another threat really worked out for us.

No matter WHO pays, simply raising taxes will take 115 billion - 1.3 TRILLION a year - out of the economy. Over 10% of GNP! Over and above what they already take.

How big of a government do you want?
Pete

First, we're trying to pay for the government expenditures we already incurred over the past 10 years.

Secondly, nobody is talking about making up the deficit solely through taxes. Most reasonable economists (also the Debt Commission) set out a formula of 3:1 (cuts vs. revenue).

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by finnbow

.

Secondly, nobody is talking about making up the deficit solely through taxes. Most reasonable economists (also the Debt Commission) set out a formula of 3:1 (cuts vs. revenue).

BS, I am.


seriously though that ratio would be inverted if anyone is being serious

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Yeah, spending the SS money and cutting the military like there'd never be another threat really worked out for us.

No matter WHO pays, simply raising taxes will take 115 billion - 1.3 TRILLION a year - out of the economy. Over 10% of GNP! Over and above what they already take.

How big of a government do you want?

Pete

You are assuming that the wealthy spend their money here and not on the Riviera, or Paris, or London, or Berlin.

[piece-itpete]

Plus, the national debt increased every single year Clinton was in office, according to the CBO, including the SS ripoff.

Pete

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Plus, the national debt increased every single year Clinton was in office, according to the CBO, including the SS ripoff.

Pete

as a % of GDP?

[piece-itpete]

No, in absolute terms.

Pete

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

No, in absolute terms.

Pete

that's what i figured

so really it did not go up at all

[Fast_Eddie]

I wish Obama would tell Boehner to do whatever he wants. Go on TV and say "They know the risks and they know the consequences. My administration believes it is reckless to intentionally sully the good credit of the United States and understands that good, tax paying American Citizens will pay the price for their extremist measures. But they were freely elected and they need to do what they think is right."

What would Boehner and Co do then? They KNOW they have to approve raising the debt ceiling. Playing political games with it is stupid. Obama should call their bluff.

[flacaltenn]

Kinda fair and balanced debate goin on..

Whell stole my sarcastic return to JonL about why we can't rescind all those Green GE tax credits..

About the 1990's -- Pete you are brave and usually right, but Clinton did buy on to balancing the budget (even with that lip-biting episode where he repented "for raising your taxes too much"). And as a result, with the help of a Republican majority, the budget went into surplus for a couple quarters. In fact, at the time, I researched how amazed the Treasury was that there was no mechanism for "paying down the debt" in place at that time. See the Feds can't carry over cash from yr to yr, so if there IS a surplus, they have to buy back bonds early. And that hadn't happened in soo long, they forgot how to do that. But WHELL is right, it was STILL done by stealing about 300Bil/yr in payroll taxes from (largely) the "working class".

JonL:

If there is pain to be had in digging out of our hole, shouldn't a good deal of that pain be borne by those who have benefitted disproportionately from its creation?

First - we need some evidence that "the rich" benefitted from the downturn in the economy. MOST of the "tax targeted rich" got PUMMELED in their private 401K and savings. Only the traders who positioned themselves out of Fanny/Freddy and the housing bubble increased their worth. But for these few, the last 5 years is probably close to a wash. We are ALL being economically deflated. Top to bottom.. Yes, there's a gap -- but it's becoming just about as meaningful as the gap between the Howells and everyone else on Gilligan's Island.

Second -- We're seeing the results of criminally poor financial management at the Congressional level. That Geitners recent action is just the latest example of negligient fiduciary responsibility. For THAT -- the guilty have to pay. Just like demanding accountability on Wall Street, we need accountability and some "perp walks" from the govt. Not going to let them continue these criminal acts. Especially, the continuing lie that the SS/MC crisis is still years off. Stop the lying now -- and we can talk about fixing it. You stop the criminal acts, before you swing into repair mode.

Thirdly, we have excused about 1/2 of America from contributing to this crisis by reducing their INCOME taxes to zero (or refunding a negative tax thru EITC). That puts a crimp into the repair effort. Now progressive income is OK I guess to a point. If we hadn't stolen from this bottom half thru excess payroll taxes for most of their lives, I'd have NO compunctions about asking them to contribute a token amount to the fix. Were none of THESE people for the wars that helped shove us into an untenable financial muck-up? Were none of these people for the housing policies that inflated the housing bubble? Were none of these people for all the Green crappola that's been over-hyped at GE? Were none of these people in favor of including drug benefits to MCare?

Fourthly, the better method than targeting specific incomes with higher tax brackets, is to start closing the existing "tax expenditures" (as the left likes to call them) or loopholes. Do it as uniformly and universally as possible. Don't promote the class warfare rhetoric which truly isn't gonna fix the problem.. (See california e.g. where about 30,000 people in that state pay 60% of state income tax. So when THOSE people take a hit in a declining market -- the whole state goes into the red).

But I'm not in a mood to see the Treasury stealing from yet ANOTHER pile of OPiuM (other peoples money). Or punishing the lower class with a dollar devaluation and NOT calling that a tax.

BTW: I was kinda laid back about Obama and his predilection for class warfare and progressive politics. Was hoping he would at least roll back the Patriot act and get us untangled from the Mid East. But when Geitner went thru after the revelation that he couldn't follow simple instructions for filing HIS taxes --- my patience started to run out. This man SHOULD NOT have that job..

[JonL]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

JonL:



First - we need some evidence that "the rich" benefitted from the downturn in the economy. MOST of the "tax targeted rich" got PUMMELED in their private 401K and savings. Only the traders who positioned themselves out of Fanny/Freddy and the housing bubble increased their worth. But for these few, the last 5 years is probably close to a wash. We are ALL being economically deflated. Top to bottom.. Yes, there's a gap -- but it's becoming just about as meaningful as the gap between the Howells and everyone else on Gilligan's Island.

I know that the disparity in wealth in this country has increased dramatically over the past decade... for whatever reason. I also know that during that time the taxes paid by the wealthiest Americans has decreased dramatically. Perhaps a good start to increasing revenues (while also responsibly reducing spending) would be to restore the tax structure to where it has historically been during periods of protracted economic growth fueled by a vibrant middle class. BTW, I'm not suggesting that the downturn benefitted the wealthy, but it certainly didn't cause the same degree of hardship that it caused the middle class and below. I am suggesting that our tax policy has benefited the wealthy to the detriment of the rest of us.

I surely don't get your Gilligan's Island analogy.

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Second -- We're seeing the results of criminally poor financial management at the Congressional level. That Geitners recent action is just the latest example of negligient fiduciary responsibility. For THAT -- the guilty have to pay. Just like demanding accountability on Wall Street, we need accountability and some "perp walks" from the govt. Not going to let them continue these criminal acts. Especially, the continuing lie that the SS/MC crisis is still years off. Stop the lying now -- and we can talk about fixing it. You stop the criminal acts, before you swing into repair mode.

It would be nice to reduce the hyperbole in DC and start discussing issues in a rational manner that isn't totally influenced by lobbying and pandering.

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Thirdly, we have excused about 1/2 of America from contributing to this crisis by reducing their INCOME taxes to zero (or refunding a negative tax thru EITC). That puts a crimp into the repair effort. Now progressive income is OK I guess to a point. If we hadn't stolen from this bottom half thru excess payroll taxes for most of their lives, I'd have NO compunctions about asking them to contribute a token amount to the fix. Were none of THESE people for the wars that helped shove us into an untenable financial muck-up? Were none of these people for the housing policies that inflated the housing bubble? Were none of these people for all the Green crappola that's been over-hyped at GE? Were none of these people in favor of including drug benefits to MCare?

The reason so many lower income people pay little or no income tax is because far too many people have subsistence level incomes or below. I don't know what you mean about "stealing" from people with payroll taxes. We all get services from the gov't, and they need to be paid for. The fact that people (of whatever means) may have been "for" or "against" various policies in a general sense has no bearing on if those people as individuals or as a member of a particular class should pay or not pay for the policies. We are all in this together. If our elected (?) leaders take us into war, it is incumbent upon them to demand that we pay for it. If we do not want to pay for it, we need to get our leaders to change their policies. Our leaders lacked the courage, foresight, or principle to demand that we make sacrifices to achieve our objectives.

Furthermore, it's disingenuous to "blame" normal people for supporting various policies that were so convoluted and arcane in their implementation as to be totally unintelligible. Do think anyone who benefitted from housing policies was given an explanation about CDOs, mortgage backed securities, economic bubbles, bank failures, foreclosures, etc, while they were being told that homeownership was the American dream and that real estate was a "sure thing?" As to the drug benefits, there was TREMENDOUS opposition to the way it was implemented because it was confusing to the supposed beneficiaries and a windfall for the actual beneficiaries - the pharmaceutical companies and the insurance companies. I also believe that a majority of Americans would favor a sound "green" energy development policy if it was funded by eliminating oil company tax breaks, and I bet most would even support it if it included a modest gas tax of a couple of pennies per gallon.

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Fourthly, the better method than targeting specific incomes with higher tax brackets, is to start closing the existing "tax expenditures" (as the left likes to call them) or loopholes. Do it as uniformly and universally as possible. Don't promote the class warfare rhetoric which truly isn't gonna fix the problem.. (See california e.g. where about 30,000 people in that state pay 60% of state income tax. So when THOSE people take a hit in a declining market -- the whole state goes into the red).

No argument that loopholes should be closed. However, this mantra of "class warfare" is a stupid red herring. Only the most radical of leftists are saying anything that approaches class warfare rhetoric. It's a nice way for those who are benefitting from the increasing income disparity to deflect criticism of the unfair policies that help them. It's as if a bully keeps poking his finger in your eye and when you punch back he gets you arrested for assault.

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

But I'm not in a mood to see the Treasury stealing from yet ANOTHER pile of OPiuM (other peoples money). Or punishing the lower class with a dollar devaluation and NOT calling that a tax.

How much taxation is legitimate before you call it "stealing?"