Israel has invaded Gaza...

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by BeamOn

Israel has blown up the one and only power plant. No electricity, running water or sewer. Now every resident of Gaza is affected and no end in sight.

That's fucked up by anyone's measure.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

I've heard cold cuts. In Venice IL I heard chopped ham called 'chipchop'. I'm gonna get me some chipchop. They did not know what 'pop' was.

Pete

Where TF is Venice, IL? Must be southern Illinois if they don't know what "pop" is. Somebody asks for a "soda" in Chicago it's like...where you from...Cairo? Might as well be from goddamn Tennessee as Cairo.

In Chicago the only time it's soda is if it's like "Grape Soda" or "Orange Soda"...and even then, it's still "pop." Although I like it down in GA., where everything is a co-cola. 7UP is co-cola.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

There have always been Jews in "Palestine." The history of "Palestine" is one of endless occupations by various tribes of people. The history goes back way past any occupation by the Turks. I understand it's not convenient history for you Zionism = racism types, or for the Zionism = Nazism types like Zeke. But that's just too goddamn bad.

It's very rude to call me a 'zionism = racism' type. I'm not a type, I'm an individual. I have not expressed the idea that 'zionism = racism,' and I haven't called you a 'type,' or anything else.

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Before? Before, Jews were handy infidels to have around in Iraq, Iran, and Syria. They got along fine (if you consider tolerating somebody you consider to be scum as "fine") prior to any suggestion that any dirt actually belonged to any Jews. Once Jews became property owning neighbors...then they weren't so fine.

Ah, so they didn't get after them 'just because they were Jews.' They got after them because they were Jews, and other Jews were taking land from other Muslims. The last, of course, is the sort of thing that tends to piss anyone off at anyone.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Easy for you to say when the deal is that only yours are facts and anybody else's are opinions.

C'mon. I never said that.

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Too bad you people aren't up to providing any historical basis for your "facts" that goes any further back than 1967. There were Jews living in the "holy land" for centuries before there was an Islami religion. Probably in the neighborhood of 25 centuries before Islam.

"Too bad you people' is rather sarcastic. A lot of the grief you're catching in this thread is due to the tone you take with others. I mention this because it doesn't have to be the 'normal' way these matters are discussed. We could decide to offer each other more respect. I think we'd have more chance to understanding each other better, and even finding some areas of agreement, and new insights, if we did that.

As for the history you mention, 'living in' is one thing, of course, while having political ascendancy or full national sovereignty is quite another. The bottom line is that in 1947, the Israelis claimed full national sovereignty, in the usual way, with armed force. I recognize 'facts on the ground, and am not calling for Israel's disestablishment.

It would go a huge long way if you and the Israelis would just admit they came in and took over, creating said facts by force and fraud. That they did real harm to a lot of Palestinians doing it, and have done a lot more harm since. That Roger Cohen isn't just a messed-up guilty guy, but a person with good values, and with a lot of truth to what he says.

Maybe another way to say that is 'it's not messed up to feel guilty if you've done wrong.'

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Says you who have never been through a holocaust or know anything about the holocaust which you haven't seen on The History Channel, which really oughta be called The Nazi Channel.

You truly are unable to rationally think, aren't you?

The holocaust -- which pales in comparison to other atrocities committed, over time, to wipe out other races -- doesn't justify a DAMNED thing that an entitled Israel does, today.

Because you got shafted in the past doesn't absolve you from entitled behavior in the present. Especially if the people you are oppressing are not the ones who committed the prior evil.

You appear to be an overtly emotional, apologist, non-linear, shameful, self-righteous and shallow pseudo analyst whose world view is being dismissed by most of the world.

I LAUGH at your ineptness.

[JJIII]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

I mention this because it doesn't have to be the 'normal' way these matters are discussed. We could decide to offer each other more respect. I think we'd have more chance to understanding each other better, and even finding some areas of agreement, and new insights, if we did that.

Thank you.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

C'mon. I never said that.




"Too bad you people' is rather sarcastic. A lot of the grief you're catching in this thread is due to the tone you take with others. I mention this because it doesn't have to be the 'normal' way these matters are discussed. We could decide to offer each other more respect. I think we'd have more chance to understanding each other better, and even finding some areas of agreement, and new insights, if we did that.

As for the history you mention, 'living in' is one thing, of course, while having political ascendancy or full national sovereignty is quite another. The bottom line is that in 1947, the Israelis claimed full national sovereignty, in the usual way, with armed force. I recognize 'facts on the ground, and am not calling for Israel's disestablishment.

It would go a huge long way if you and the Israelis would just admit they came in and took over, creating said facts by force and fraud. That they did real harm to a lot of Palestinians doing it, and have done a lot more harm since. That Roger Cohen isn't just a messed-up guilty guy, but a person with good values, and with a lot of truth to what he says.

Maybe another way to say that is 'it's not messed up to feel guilty if you've done wrong.'

Neither I, nor Israelis should say anything of the sort. A reasonable plan for a Palestinian homeland and a Jewish homeland was provided by the British Mandate and it was rejected right out of the gate and not by the Jews. If Roger Cohen wants to ignore the fact that right from the beginning, the stated goal of the enemies of Israeli Jews was the destruction of any Jewish state in the "holy land" and the death of any Jews who try to establish any Jewish state in the "holy land", and that it continues unchanged to date, that is Mr. Cohen's blind spot.

My tone and my manner are my concern. I have strong feelings about this and I see no need to temper them so that you can feel all comfy that at the end of the day we can all sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya with each other. Because there's never any agreement on this issue. Just as there's never any agreement on guns, or abortion, or creationism or gay marriage or most of any of the other issues debated on this forum or any other.

Seems to me when us lefty guys get our back up the most is when somebody who's typically the spread on your side of the bread suddenly turns into a braindead right-winger on any particular subject. Then we got all these concerns about sarcasm back and forth (because it's fucking back and forth Don and it's been back and forth since my opinions were known...it ain't just me) that we don't have when everybody remains properly ensconced in their anticipated ideological space. It's so interesting how I'm told I don't get it and I don't know what I'm talking about...but I get it fine and I know what I'm talking about just fine when I'm agreeing with the left-side of this forum. But it's that way for any liberal supporter of Israel on any liberally slanted forum. Ask any liberal forum member who's a supporter of the state of Israel and decides to shoot himself in the head by making it public on that forum.

The problems all end when Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda terrorism ends. When hundreds of rockets and mortar rounds aren't fired into quiet Israeli neighborhoods filled with people who just want to be left the fuck alone, but probably won't ever be because some religious fanatic and the dolts who are more than happy to follow him don't like who lives in the neighborhood.

Trying to make peace with those people is like trying to make peace with a fucking wolverine.

[whell]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

The problems all end when Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda terrorism ends.

I wonder. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. are doing nothing more than fighting a proxy war for their benefactors. While their members are "true believers", their funding comes from the "usual suspects" of Middle Eastern nations that have pricked fights with Israel in one for or another since Israel's inception. Hamas is running a huge budget deficit this year since the Muslim Brotherhood got kicked out of Egypt, so it will be interesting to see how this develops.

If those groups are dealt a death blow, I'm left to wonder what might spring up in their place.

[nailer]

It won't like Israelites.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Zeke

You truly are unable to rationally think, aren't you?

The holocaust -- which pales in comparison to other atrocities committed, over time, to wipe out other races -- doesn't justify a DAMNED thing that an entitled Israel does, today.

Because you got shafted in the past doesn't absolve you from entitled behavior in the present. Especially if the people you are oppressing are not the ones who committed the prior evil.

You appear to be an overtly emotional, apologist, non-linear, shameful, self-righteous and shallow pseudo analyst whose world view is being dismissed by most of the world.

I LAUGH at your ineptness.

You appear to be self-absorbed and terminally unique narcissistic blowhard who works harder at maintaining his own bloated self-image than anything else.

I chuckle at your pomposity.