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  #41  
Old 01-08-2017, 09:34 PM
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d-ray657 d-ray657 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
What's a fair contract ? Exactly what do you think somebody doing a repetitive task with nothing invested and no skin in the game is supposed to make? What do you think that somebody who didn't even have the gumption to finish school is suppose to make? What do you think somebody who tells the boss "that is not my job" is supposed to make? What do you think somebody who is offered an opportunity but refuses it because it is harder is supposed to make ? Do you think that the purpose of a business is to give people jobs ? Do you wonder why countries whose people are happy to study and do whatever it takes are taking our jobs ?
You make plenty of false assumptions. A lot of these workers spend several years in an apprentice program gaining the skills for their trade. Others invest years and years in a job developing a skill set that benefits their employer. A fair contract recognizes the investment of time and effort that workers make toward the profitability of the company. It reflects the value that the workers add to the product. A fair contract certainly allows people to work at a wage level that provides decent housing, nutrition and health care - and education for their kids.

The people I come in contact with are interested in working hard and producing a good product (or building), or in keeping people and property safe, protecting the health of their patients, or providing other services that people expect to find in the marketplace.

You appear to have a warped view of the people who go to work daily to try their best to earn a living. Indeed, you must really have a troubled soul to carry such hatred toward other people who are not as "good" as you. Was all that money really worth it?
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  #42  
Old 01-08-2017, 10:02 PM
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bobabode bobabode is offline
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Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
You guys seem to live in some fantasy world.
You seem to think that the people who sacrificed and put forth the effort are no different from you. Just fortunate. That's bullshit.
The reason you never amounted to anything is on you. Same with everybody else.
You went and got a job working a hammer for somebody else and that is as far as you took it.
Now you think you deserve some fair share for being a grunt.
Good luck in the contest.
You couldn't be further from the truth of it, my douchey lil' friend. Small business owner who worked for myself for the last twenty-five years or so. Made a decent living and thoroughly enjoyed working with my hands and brains. Constantly in demand to where I never lacked for work and able to spot stuck up nouveau riche punks like yourself from a mile off.

I actually got a kick out of giving the likes of you the brush off since my work was in such high demand. I'm sure you've been on receiving end of that treatment. There's little doubt that accomplished trade/craftsman won't even take your calls or they tell your lame ass that they're booked six, eight or even ten months in advance.

I've had shit assed chiseling Newport Beach libertarians sniffing after me to do their remodels for years. I wouldn't take their jobs if they paid double in advance and threw in a roll in the hay with their poor neglected trophy wives. I leave that action to the gardeners and pool boys y'all hire.
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  #43  
Old 01-08-2017, 10:58 PM
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Heh. Speaking of massive retaliation....
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  #44  
Old 01-08-2017, 11:29 PM
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Heh. Speaking of massive retaliation....
Just callin' 'em as I see 'em, brother.
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  #45  
Old 01-09-2017, 08:30 AM
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Dondilion Dondilion is offline
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Heh. Speaking of massive retaliation....
Bob gone nuclear.
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  #46  
Old 01-09-2017, 09:41 AM
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Oerets Oerets is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657 View Post
You make plenty of false assumptions. A lot of these workers spend several years in an apprentice program gaining the skills for their trade. Others invest years and years in a job developing a skill set that benefits their employer. A fair contract recognizes the investment of time and effort that workers make toward the profitability of the company. It reflects the value that the workers add to the product. A fair contract certainly allows people to work at a wage level that provides decent housing, nutrition and health care - and education for their kids.

The people I come in contact with are interested in working hard and producing a good product (or building), or in keeping people and property safe, protecting the health of their patients, or providing other services that people expect to find in the marketplace.

You appear to have a warped view of the people who go to work daily to try their best to earn a living. Indeed, you must really have a troubled soul to carry such hatred toward other people who are not as "good" as you. Was all that money really worth it?
Haven't you found out yet contracts are only a bad thing when it applies to the general worker bees. Those with little power and voice.
Not when applied to captains of industry, electricians plumbers mechanics and the likes, they all see the need for protections in writing.


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  #47  
Old 01-09-2017, 10:23 AM
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Rajoo Rajoo is offline
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Originally Posted by bobabode View Post
Just callin' 'em as I see 'em, brother.
And you said it well and ended it with a good one.
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  #48  
Old 01-09-2017, 10:40 AM
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Oerets Oerets is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk View Post
You guys seem to live in some fantasy world.
You seem to think that the people who sacrificed and put forth the effort are no different from you. Just fortunate. That's bullshit.
The reason you never amounted to anything is on you. Same with everybody else.
You went and got a job working a hammer for somebody else and that is as far as you took it.
Now you think you deserve some fair share for being a grunt.
Good luck in the contest.
It appears a few will never acknowledge or comprehend the help received in success. Something like a teacher who helped or the parents. Is this arrogance or a perceived superiority in ones self? Who knows, one can say anything over the internet to those on the other end.
Luck and timing also plays into one success or lack. Some of the most hard working successful people I know realize this and appreciate just how lucky they are.



Barney
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  #49  
Old 01-09-2017, 10:44 AM
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whell whell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657 View Post
You make plenty of false assumptions. A lot of these workers spend several years in an apprentice program gaining the skills for their trade. Others invest years and years in a job developing a skill set that benefits their employer. A fair contract recognizes the investment of time and effort that workers make toward the profitability of the company. It reflects the value that the workers add to the product. A fair contract certainly allows people to work at a wage level that provides decent housing, nutrition and health care - and education for their kids.

The people I come in contact with are interested in working hard and producing a good product (or building), or in keeping people and property safe, protecting the health of their patients, or providing other services that people expect to find in the marketplace.

You appear to have a warped view of the people who go to work daily to try their best to earn a living. Indeed, you must really have a troubled soul to carry such hatred toward other people who are not as "good" as you. Was all that money really worth it?
Condescension from someone who purports to have cornered the market on morality.

It is a legitimate question to ask the question: what is the market value of a particular job, particularly unskilled labor. Not all union jobs require apprenticeship programs, and for those that do the unions try to make damn sure that they achieve cartel status for the utilization of that labor.

Take this contract for instance:

http://hotelworkers.org/images/uploa..._Agreement.pdf

This year, a dishwasher at a union NY area hotel will make $30.8714 per hour. A pot washer will make $31.1043. Housekeepers will be in the $32/ hour range. $31/hour doing hotel laundry.

Now, I have no malice, envy or ill - will against folks who earn those wages doing those jobs. More power to them. Also, the NY hotel business is pretty flush being one of the world's major destination, so those wages - at major hotels - are likely sustainable in the near term. Maybe in Chicago and L.A as well. But just about anywhere else? Not so much. Not even half if that in cities like Detroit, Cincinnati, Indianapolis or I suspect Atlanta. Or even Washington DC.

It would be great if that was possible, but the reality is that certain job functions have limited value. Even a union contract recognizes this. Using your standard, does a housekeeper have less "investment of time and effort ... toward the profitability of the company" than a cook? No, but a union contact for a hotel often pays the cook more. Which might seem counter-intuitive: I'd rather have a bland meal at a hotel versus an "almost clean" hotel room. But cooks have typically have more training, require more on the job experience to become proficient than a housekeeper does. This doesn't diminish the value of the work that the housekeeper does at the hotel, it simply prices that labor in more in line with the knowledge, skills and abilities.

This also explains why the concept of a "living wage" is flawed. Nice idea, but flawed.
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  #50  
Old 01-09-2017, 11:09 AM
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whell whell is offline
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Back to the OP, the title of this thread is, once again, not reflective of the facts. There's always been evidence that the attack on the DNC server likely came from Russia. There's no doubt that if Podesta didn't click on a phishing email that apparently came from Russia, we probably wouldn't be reading about his emails.

Nor do I think you can go as far as Trump and say that the publication of emails had ZERO effect on folks thought processes when they went to the polls.

However, there's no way that anyone can claim "the election was corrupted". Hillary did ultimately win the popular vote, after all. So if there was an effort to "corrupt the election" - something that no one thinks was possible anyway since there was no hacker access to the voting machines - the effort was pretty lame.

I think this piece from Politifact does a pretty reasonable job of cutting through the crap:

"The presidential election, with its national constituency, is decided by multiple, interrelated causes, all of which were necessary but not sufficient," said Kyle Saunders, a Colorado State University political scientist. Referring to such factors as the candidates’ personalities and messages as well as the general political environment, Saunders said that "no one determinate cause can be offered as ‘the’ explanation, and doing so is a fool's errand."

Saunders agreed that one doesn’t have to believe that hacking did affect the election to say comfortably that Trump is wrong to say it absolutely didn’t affect the election -- there's simply no way of knowing either way with any certainty that something affected the outcome.

He added that while a reasonable case can be made that the hacking did help Trump, that's informed speculation -- not certainty -- and said there’s no way to know how big a factor it may have been compared to other factors.


Also, right from Clapper:

Clapper’s most direct remark at the Senate hearing on this issue came in this exchange with the panel’s chairman, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.:

McCain: "So really, what we're talking about, is if they succeeded in changing the results of an election, of which none of us believe they were, that would have to constitute an attack on the United States of America because of the effects, if they had succeeded, would you agree with that?"

Clapper: "First, we cannot say -- they did not change any vote tallies or -- or anything of that sort."

McCain: "Yeah, I'm just talking about…"

Clapper: "And we have no -- we have no way of gauging the impact that -- certainly the intelligence community can't gauge the impact it had on the choices the electorate made. There's no way for us to gauge that."

Was there influence of popular opinion by releasing info from the DNC? Sure. Was it purposeful? Very likely. Did it help Trump and hurt Hillary? With some folks, sure. But some of those folks were pre-disposed to be influence by that info one way or another anyway. In other words, some folks pre-disposed to support Hillary were possibly even MORE invigorated to vote for her because of this.

The BIG question: was all of this specifically designed and intended to help Trump? As I've said all along, NO WAY TO KNOW, and as Clapper suggests, even if we knew there's NO WAY TO ASSESS THE IMPACT one way or another.

Let the retaliatory chips fall where they may over the hacking. We probably need to be pretty careful with retaliation anyway since the US is engaged in electronic surveillance and hacking other countries infrastructure as well. But as a story that relates to the actual outcome of the 2016 election, Case Closed.
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