Political Forums  

Go Back   Political Forums > Current events

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:32 PM
Zeke's Avatar
Zeke Zeke is offline
Sir Lord Vader of Cheam
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 5,065
Send a message via Yahoo to Zeke
Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
Bad night to wax ironic, i guess.

Zeke has stated (in the other topic) that if you impede, you make yourself the enemy of the police.
If you're going to paraphrase, try accuracy.

If you impede an officer [in the carrying out of his duties], you are -- by definition and with good reason -- an enemy of police and civil society.

That's just the math.

And don't lay the passive resistance crap out for scrutiny: I think we've already established this kid wasn't acting all MLK?
__________________
"American" means calling everyone who disagrees with you a traitor?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:33 PM
bobabode's Avatar
bobabode bobabode is offline
Admin
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain in California
Posts: 37,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
1968, I'd say. 1968.
LA '64 too. Speaking of LA - http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...813-story.html
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:38 PM
Pio1980's Avatar
Pio1980 Pio1980 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
If you're going to paraphrase, try accuracy.

If you impede an officer [in the carrying out of his duties], you are -- by definition and with good reason -- an enemy of police and civil society.

That's just the math.

And don't lay the passive resistance crap out for scrutiny: I think we've already established this kid wasn't acting all MLK?
No, its just tyranny.
We haven't established anything on the kid and the LEOs statement is suspect if not uncredible. He created this mess exercising bad judgement overreacting to a non threatening situation and summarily excecuted a young man, no doubt expecting no accountability as is apparently standard practice in Ferguson.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
__________________
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:43 PM
Pio1980's Avatar
Pio1980 Pio1980 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,049
I'm s defender of good law enforcement and those that practice it. I find rogue cops and unaccountable tyrannical police departments a blight on an honorable profession and what has gone on in Ferguson disgusts me.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
__________________
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:50 PM
Zeke's Avatar
Zeke Zeke is offline
Sir Lord Vader of Cheam
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 5,065
Send a message via Yahoo to Zeke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
No, its just tyranny.
No. Tyranny is shooting the kid immediately for being in the road without doing your job and trying to make him get out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
We haven't established anything on the kid...
Beyond the fact that he was in the road?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
...and the LEOs statement is suspect if not uncredible.
Again, shots fired in the car. After contact with a law breaker. What is "suspect" about these facts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
He created this mess exercising bad judgement...
The kid, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
...overreacting to a non threatening situation...
Like being assaulted in his own vehicle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
...and summarily excecuted a young man...
Who attacked him in his car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
no doubt expecting no accountability as is apparently standard practice in Ferguson.
Odd. I don't see any looting tonight? Looks like folks are being completely held accountable for their criminal behavior.
__________________
"American" means calling everyone who disagrees with you a traitor?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-13-2014, 11:53 PM
Pio1980's Avatar
Pio1980 Pio1980 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,049
So you are totally buying the LEOs story?
I might change my mind but right now it looks to me like a cop used to abusing his authority and creating a tragedy with his ego. One might assume such disregard for ethical practice is accepted as normal in the Ferguson pd.


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
__________________
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Last edited by Pio1980; 08-14-2014 at 12:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-14-2014, 12:47 AM
donquixote99's Avatar
donquixote99 donquixote99 is offline
Ready
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
If you're going to paraphrase, try accuracy.

If you impede an officer [in the carrying out of his duties], you are -- by definition and with good reason -- an enemy of police and civil society.

That's just the math.

And don't lay the passive resistance crap out for scrutiny: I think we've already established this kid wasn't acting all MLK?
I'm sorry, I missed where we had any evidence that the kid assaulted anyone, other than hearsay.

Dangerous word, enemy. It negates the person it is applied to. They may have rights, they may even be great people who deserve a good life, but once one names them enemy, one tends to cease to care. The name 'enemy' reduces them to a problem, or a target. It takes away their humanity.

And you seem willing to apply it summarily, for slight cause.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-14-2014, 01:12 AM
Zeke's Avatar
Zeke Zeke is offline
Sir Lord Vader of Cheam
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 5,065
Send a message via Yahoo to Zeke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
So you are totally buying the LEOs story?
I might change my mind but right now it looks to me like a cop used to abusing his authority and creating a tragedy with his ego. One might assume such disregard for ethical practice is accepted as normal in the Ferguson pd.
(sigh)

No.

I, actually, don't 100% buy anyone's story, ever. It's not that people are inherently evil, or dishonest, or subversive... What people are is fallible, with agendas even they might not know, and eyewitness testimony is inherently unreliable for a variety of reasons that bear nothing related to malice.

Which is why, in instances such as these, I try to deal in data. Unless you believe the data is wrong or has been tampered with, we know that the entire altercation occurred within a thirty-five foot (~2 car lengths of a 2013 Ford Taurus) linear progression with at least one shot being fired (hitting the kid) while he was in the car. Some folks say the kid was pulled in. Others say he assaulted the officer to get there. It really doesn't matter as the prior is being lawfully detained and the other is an unlawful assault. The bottom line is the kid was at one point in the car which traveled a whole two car lengths throughout the incident.

Do you have any idea how fast things must have occurred? Nobody is going to remember detail and it will all be a blur. Do you know what occurs when things are a blur? You fall back onto training. The training, is this: if your life is perceived as in danger, you win. Now. It does NOT matter what got you to this point and your subjective argument at the time is the only one that matters. (Being wrong sucks. Being dead because you hesitated is worse.)

That's the trump card, across the board. Many believe it blows but that's reality. If someone doesn't wish to be caught up in reality, they should stay out of the damned road or at least move when a cruiser -- or ANY OTHER CAR -- attempts to travel down it. Had that occurred, none of this happens. Nobody is forced to make a decision. Everybody makes it home.

Choices.

Folks can decry the officer's decision to use deadly force once thinking he was in danger but it was at least one based in (presumably) a college degree, police academy, experience, ongoing training, observation, etc. I lament more the kid's decision. He just couldn't be bothered to get out of the road, even when instructed to by someone specifically empowered to make certain it occurred.

(sigh)

What this reminds me of is the scene in my favorite movie, Apocalypse Now, when they stop the sampan and wind up shooting everyone because they were hiding a puppy. It's absolutely horrid, they didn't -- strictly -- have to make the stop and it all went wrong.

But it was their job.

Getting this kid out of the street was the officer's job. If his intent was to grease the kid he could of just done it first thing. He didn't. I'm willing to buy this as no intent for anyone to die. Something changed along the way, he got scared. That didn't happen in a vacuum.

Unless you're willing to believe that it did, at least the first shot is righteous. Maybe he didn't have to metaphorically take out the rest of the sampan but that's training, too. Once you've identified an immediate danger to you (and, thus, the public at large) meeting the threshold to use deadly force, you do not stop until the danger is neutralized. Running, even if away, is NOT neutralized.

That's your JOB. It's not complex. By observation you either live with it, drink too much, escape before you're locked in or become cynical. Sometimes, more than one at the same time.

But that's The Job.

I went back to school to avoid this sort of thing.
__________________
"American" means calling everyone who disagrees with you a traitor?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-14-2014, 02:03 AM
icenine's Avatar
icenine icenine is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego via Vermilion Ohio and Points Between
Posts: 11,536
From what I understand is that his friend said that the cop pulled him by the neck into the patrol car.

I have yet to hear any explanation from either the cop or the Police Department and it has been almost a week.

So
my bullshit detector says the police are hiding something
__________________
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-14-2014, 08:41 AM
donquixote99's Avatar
donquixote99 donquixote99 is offline
Ready
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Which is why, in instances such as these, I try to deal in data. Unless you believe the data is wrong or has been tampered with, we know that the entire altercation occurred within a thirty-five foot (~2 car lengths of a 2013 Ford Taurus) linear progression with at least one shot being fired (hitting the kid) while he was in the car. Some folks say the kid was pulled in. Others say he assaulted the officer to get there. It really doesn't matter as the prior is being lawfully detained and the other is an unlawful assault. The bottom line is the kid was at one point in the car which traveled a whole two car lengths throughout the incident.
Let's just focus on this. Let's say that a LEO grabs some part of my anatomy, pulls hard, and brings me in painful contact with some part of a police cruiser. I naturally try to break his grip and avoid further painful trauma. According to you, he now has the right to kill me?

If so, bad has become normal and lawful, and I want it changed. The idea of taking away the guns from police comes to mind.

If not, then facts that will probably have to be weighed by a jury come into play. Basically, did Mike Brown assault the officer, or did the officer grab Mike Brown through the car window, in a way the Brown could reasonably interpret not as an arrest for jaywalking, but as an attempt to harm him?

I don't think the officer departed the station that morning with the intent of killing some citizen. But I think that, like you, he has a very critical story in his head about the kids that were jaywalking. Something about 'generational rage, and entitlement,' in your case, as I recall. He may have gotten mad when he saw the kids in the street. He may have told them to 'get the fuck on the sidewalk,' or something like that.

This command, for some reason, may have produced a reaction he didn't like. He may have made a move with the police cruiser that put him in close proximity with Michael Brown. He then may have attempted to quickly exit the cruiser, but the door hit Brown, then came back and hit the officer. He may, rightly or wrongly, have interpreted this as an assault by Brown. This may have caused him to become enraged, and respond by grabbing Brown through the car window, and shooting him.

Is there any part of this possible scenario that does not fit the agreed-on facts that we have? Is it in some way outlandish, so that even though possible, is it absurdly unlikely?

I think this story, consistent with witness reports in the media, is possible. I think the police should acknowledge this possibility to the community. They should release the officers name, as an assurance that he is being investigated and will be held responsible if evidence of wrongdoing is found. I think they should acknowledge that the shooting of the young man was a tragedy, even if it turns out to be 'justified.' I think they should pledge at this point to try harder to avoid such tragedies in the future. I think there should be respectful, open dialog with an understandably-upset community.

I think the fact that this has NOT been the police response, so far, is contributing to the continued unrest. So far all people have heard is stuff like what you've said. And what you keep saying is that 'killing Michael Brown was his job.' And fuck you.

I know, neither the police or you have added the 'fuck you.' But I assure you the aggrieved citizens of Ferguson think they hear it, right at the end of the cold, clipped, defensive stone-wall prose. Loud and clear.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.