Pope John Paul's Beatification ....

[whell]

Originally Posted by JonL

You can call that bashing, I call it reality. What's bashing? Things like the Crusades, the Holocaust, Jihadism, and the genocidal atrocities we have seen in our own generation in Bosnia and Africa. Those are what I call "bashing." Not some stupid, meaningless chatter on a silly internet forum.

Let's see. Your argument/linkage/logic is that:

- religion leads to violence, therefore religion is bad.
- Christianity lead to the Crusades, the Crusades killed people, so Christianity is bad
- The bible depicts violent acts and wars. The bible is a religious document. Religion is bad.
- Islam lead to to Jihad. Jihad kills people. Therefore Islam is bad.

So, maybe we should get busy applying that same logic, if it works well for you. How 'bout this.

- JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was an Atheist. Atheism in bad.

- The Soviet Union was an athestic state. The Soviets slaughtered millions of their own people. Atheism kills.

- Hitler was conflicted in his religious beliefs throughout most of his life, ultimately choosing, according to some, to place Germany ahead of any notion of a "god". Hitler was a Nazi. Those who are conflicted about their religion or reject "god" are Nazi's.

If we're gonna be consistent, then by God (oops) let's be consistent.

[JonL]

Originally Posted by whell

Let's see. Your argument/linkage/logic is that:

- religion leads to violence, therefore religion is bad.
- Christianity lead to the Crusades, the Crusades killed people, so Christianity is bad
- The bible depicts violent acts and wars. The bible is a religious document. Religion is bad.
- Islam lead to to Jihad. Jihad kills people. Therefore Islam is bad.

So, maybe we should get busy applying that same logic, if it works well for you. How 'bout this.

- JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was an Atheist. Atheism in bad.

- The Soviet Union was an athestic state. The Soviets slaughtered millions of their own people. Atheism kills.

- Hitler was conflicted in his religious beliefs throughout most of his life, ultimately choosing, according to some, to place Germany ahead of any notion of a "god". Hitler was a Nazi. Those who are conflicted about their religion or reject "god" are Nazi's.

If we're gonna be consistent, then by God (oops) let's be consistent.

I'm not going to chase you down the rat hole of ridiculous logic.

IMO, religion has been and still is used to consolidate power, manipulate people, create artificial separation between peoples, incite and foment violence, and create unnecessary pain and suffering in this world. It's mythology and superstition, plain and simple, and it's a terrible shame that mythology and superstition continues to be such a powerful force in the world today.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by JonL

I'm not going to chase you down the rat hole of ridiculous logic.

.

lol, that's our whell

[JonL]

Originally Posted by whell

Let's see. Your argument/linkage/logic is that:

- religion leads to violence, therefore religion is bad.

Let's see...

Whell used the word "bad." Bad is BAD. Therefore whell is bad.

QED.

[flacaltenn]

JonL:

The Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust and even arguably Jihadism would not have gotten off the ground without STATE complicity and funding. So I can't blame religion solely for these things.

Human beings for some reason believe we are smart enough to understand everything in the world around us, and when presented with concepts that exceed our ability to understand (infinity, what happens when one dies, what happened before the universe existed, etc...) we invent a solution (God) so we don't have to face the fact that we are still humble animals with limitations on our intelligence.

Why are we not smart enough to know the limits of our own intelligience? Or the limits of our moral strengths? The secular humanists have absolutely no humility. That's disturbing. These are the ultimate know-it-alls. They want you to believe that all the matter and energy in the universe (and now we have to include dark matter and anti-matter) could fit on the head of a pin at the time of the Big Bang.. I don't care what kind of Physicist you are -- that requires much MORE faith than Moses parting the Red Sea.

If you truly meant to claim yourself "a humble animal" then you have faith in something.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

The secular humanists have absolutely no humility. That's disturbing. These are the ultimate know-it-alls.

It goes both ways. Religious people insist that non-religious lack morals or a deeper understanding of life. Do morals or a deeper understanding derive from belief in myths?

Why is it that a man must believe in said (unproveable, unknowable) myths, and exclusively the Christian version thereof, to run for President?

Interesting article on atheism in America recently in the WaPost:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...wGF_story.html

Its author takes questions here:
http://live.washingtonpost.com/why-d...silverman.html

For the record, I consider myself agnostic (i.e., I don't understand the origins of the universe or God, don't claim to, and don't waste time trying to convince myself that a book written two thousand years ago has answers to this riddle)

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Why is it that a man must believe in said (unproveable, unknowable) myths, and exclusively the Christian version thereof, to run for President?

I know. It really cheeses-off those folks who reject the idea that this is essentially a Christian nation.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by whell

I know. It really cheeses-off those folks who reject the idea that this is essentially a Christian nation.

Because it's not. Never has been and never will be. (Hopefully)

Which really cheeses off the fairytale believers.

Dave

[JonL]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

JonL:

The Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust and even arguably Jihadism would not have gotten off the ground without STATE complicity and funding. So I can't blame religion solely for these things.

Precisely correct. Ever since the inception of religion it has been used by the powerful to justify their actions. See the connection? Who's driving the bus?

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Why are we not smart enough to know the limits of our own intelligience? Or the limits of our moral strengths? The secular humanists have absolutely no humility. That's disturbing. These are the ultimate know-it-alls. They want you to believe that all the matter and energy in the universe (and now we have to include dark matter and anti-matter) could fit on the head of a pin at the time of the Big Bang.. I don't care what kind of Physicist you are -- that requires much MORE faith than Moses parting the Red Sea.

If you truly meant to claim yourself "a humble animal" then you have faith in something.

I do not believe that anyone truly claims to KNOW what happened at the time of the Big Bang. There may be people who strongly believe various theories. Your comment about the seeming impossibility of all matter existing within the size of a pinhead exactly supports my point. I don't know whether that's what happened or not. It is unfathomable to my limited human mind that all matter in the universe could be so condensed. Just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't the truth (it might be or not, I don't know), nor does it mean I have to invent some mythology so I don't have to admit that certain things are beyond the limits of my understanding.

Why do you say I have "faith" in something if I consider myself a humble animal? There are things that I understand, and there are things that other people understand that I do not, and there are things that no one understands. I'm completely comfortable with that.

[piece-itpete]

Jon, thanks for calling me smart, even if I'm not THAT smart.

Have you ever read the New Testament? You'd find that it is people who did those things, not God.

Pete

PS the holocaust wasn't religious.