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  #21  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:59 PM
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Mini, The idea of solar, wind, geothermal etc. presently is to not replace every dirty source (coal, oil, NG, nuke) power plant. It is to augment it, thereby reducing pollution. BTW, fracked NG is most definitely killing coal. Fossil fuels are all finite, solar isn't. Well, unless you look at the real long term-5,000,000,000 years down the road.
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  #22  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:59 PM
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In one I was looking for the stats on a country. In the other I was looking for stats on a state.

I didn't really want to spend much time searching for the article that compares the two specifically. Hence, two different sources.

And who ever said solar would replace other sources of energy?

A little o' this, a little o' that, not one or the other. Ya dig?

Dave
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  #23  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueStreak View Post
In one I was looking for the stats on a country. In the other I was looking for stats on a state.
But you know, Dave, since they were from different sources, one has to be wrong!

John
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  #24  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:32 PM
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The essence of her argument was the "backward" facts, namely that solar works in Germany, and can't work here, because they get more sun than we do. How can you defend such nonsense in any way?

John
You've got me wrong. I'll say it again: the idea that total available sunlight in a particular geographic area rings a bell with me due to weather in Michigan. That's the only point I'm making. I also posted an article which documents Germany backtracking on solar which would contradict the Fox reporter. But again, that same article suggests that geographically available sunlight is a factor, supporting my suggestion that solar is not viable in MI.
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  #25  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mini me View Post
You've got me wrong. I'll say it again: the idea that total available sunlight in a particular geographic area rings a bell with me due to weather in Michigan. That's the only point I'm making. I also posted an article which documents Germany backtracking on solar which would contradict the Fox reporter. But again, that same article suggests that geographically available sunlight is a factor, supporting my suggestion that solar is not viable in MI.
Okay, then we agree that the FOX piece was totally off base? Maybe even a lie?

Now, the article you posted does suggest that Germany's relatively low level of insolation presents a problem for them when it comes to solar energy. That's not in dispute but for you to make the stretch that Germany's problems, with only about 38% as much sunshine as Michigan, means that solar will encounter the same problems here that it does there. It's simply not supported, or even suggested, by the facts.

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  #26  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:00 PM
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Okay, then we agree that the FOX piece was totally off base? Maybe even a lie?

Now, the article you posted does suggest that Germany's relatively low level of insolation presents a problem for them when it comes to solar energy. That's not in dispute but for you to make the stretch that Germany's problems, with only about 38% as much sunshine as Michigan, means that solar will encounter the same problems here that it does there. It's simply not supported, or even suggested, by the facts.

John
We don't agree that it was a lie. A lie implies intent, and I don't think there's enough info to conclude that. I know some of you guys like to dump on Fox, and more power to you if that floats your boat.

The info that I used to suggest that solar isn't viable here in MI as anything more than a Small supplement to the grid comes from folks in the industry that I've spoken to. You can disagree with that all you wish, but I suspect they knew what they were talking about.
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:43 PM
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Well, if you ask nicely them Sunshine staters'll be glad to send you some when it's cloudy in Michigan. After all, you all came to their help after those sumbitchin' bushwackers from Missoura shot every man and boy in Lawrence a while back.
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mini me View Post
You've got me wrong. I'll say it again: the idea that total available sunlight in a particular geographic area rings a bell with me due to weather in Michigan. That's the only point I'm making. I also posted an article which documents Germany backtracking on solar which would contradict the Fox reporter. But again, that same article suggests that geographically available sunlight is a factor, supporting my suggestion that solar is not viable in MI.
The reason Germany is cutting subsidies to promote solar energy is because the program has become too successful. They fear is that it will collapse the commercial power grids that are still needed for the efficient transfer of electric power throughout Germany. The solar program was so successful Germany announced last year that they are phasing out all of their nuclear power plants.

When battery storage technology improves it will make solar power more feasible in states like MI. Generate when it is sunny and draw from the battery power when it is cloudy. This is not fiction. I have a friend who's off the grid using solar panels and storage batteries. He has an NG whole house generator for emergencies. It was very expensive to set up. Literally in the millions of dollars, but it is a multi-million dollar house. He is one of the pioneers that will help advance alternative energy sources. He is constantly upgrading to newer technology. He is not really off the grid. He still has commercial power. He is feeding excess power into the commercial grid almost everyday. Here you do not get paid for the power you feed into the commercial grid. You get a credit on your bill. Since he has no bill he is providing electricity to AEP for free. Seems like it is a nice bonus AEP lobbied for.

On thing you are missing MM is that the power grid is not local. We could build thousands of acres of solar panels in the deserts of the US and generate a massive amount of power for the grid that could be used to power homes and business' in MI.

Alternative energy is very feasible. We just have to get over the "it can't work here" mentality. Look at Iowa. It is awash with wind power generators and the last time I was there, four years ago, they were building a huge transmission line to gather the power and feed it into the grid.

As far as the OP, Fox News is a bunch of idiots. What that woman said is bullsh!t. You can't put lipstick on that pig.
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mini me View Post
We don't agree that it was a lie. A lie implies intent, and I don't think there's enough info to conclude that. I know some of you guys like to dump on Fox, and more power to you if that floats your boat.

The info that I used to suggest that solar isn't viable here in MI as anything more than a Small supplement to the grid comes from folks in the industry that I've spoken to. You can disagree with that all you wish, but I suspect they knew what they were talking about.
How can a reporter who has done "research" get her facts totally reversed, especially when the facts are so strikingly different from what she claimed them to be? That being said, I didn't say that she was lying. I merely asked if we could agree that she might have been. I suppose you're so fond of FOX that you can't even admit that much.

Did you notice that she cited no sources AT ALL in her story? The closest she got was saying that "people are saying" that solar is in trouble here or "many people are talking about on Wall Street" that we should move away from solar and concentrate on "nat gas". Why? Because it pollutes less. No wonder FOX viewers know less than people who watch no news at all.

Now, another thing: you said that the FOX story "supported" your suggestion that the experience of Germany, with significantly less than half the sunshine of Michigan, was relevant to Michigan. That's true ONLY if you swallow the FOX story on its face.

I suppose you realize that because now you're saying that "folks" you know in the power industry tell you that solar is a dead issue in Michigan. So, who are these people, what are they telling you and what is their level of expertise? You say that I'm free to disagree but, in fact, I'm not since I have no idea as to the specifics of what they've told you.

A final word about FOX and lies. It was mentioned earlier in this thread but you might have missed or ignored it. FOX has gone to court (in Tampa as I recall) to defend themselves from a suit by two reporters who were fired because they refused to do a story that was one huge pack of lies. This fact is not in dispute. Not only did the court rule that the fired reporters had no case but it also found that a news organization, like FOX or any other, was under no obligation to tell the truth. Ever. They and any other news outlet are now free to out and out lie in their reporting. How does that sit with you?

John
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgrr View Post
The reason Germany is cutting subsidies to promote solar energy is because the program has become too successful. They fear is that it will collapse the commercial power grids that are still needed for the efficient transfer of electric power throughout Germany. The solar program was so successful Germany announced last year that they are phasing out all of their nuclear power plants.

When battery storage technology improves it will make solar power more feasible in states like MI. Generate when it is sunny and draw from the battery power when it is cloudy. This is not fiction. I have a friend who's off the grid using solar panels and storage batteries. He has an NG whole house generator for emergencies. It was very expensive to set up. Literally in the millions of dollars, but it is a multi-million dollar house. He is one of the pioneers that will help advance alternative energy sources. He is constantly upgrading to newer technology. He is not really off the grid. He still has commercial power. He is feeding excess power into the commercial grid almost everyday. Here you do not get paid for the power you feed into the commercial grid. You get a credit on your bill. Since he has no bill he is providing electricity to AEP for free. Seems like it is a nice bonus AEP lobbied for.

On thing you are missing MM is that the power grid is not local. We could build thousands of acres of solar panels in the deserts of the US and generate a massive amount of power for the grid that could be used to power homes and business' in MI.

Alternative energy is very feasible. We just have to get over the "it can't work here" mentality. Look at Iowa. It is awash with wind power generators and the last time I was there, four years ago, they were building a huge transmission line to gather the power and feed it into the grid.

As far as the OP, Fox News is a bunch of idiots. What that woman said is bullsh!t. You can't put lipstick on that pig.
I'm all for turning that POS backwards state of Arizona into one big solar collector. Asshole Arizona minutemen can move to Michigan and join their dipshit militias...
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