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  #11  
Old 07-06-2011, 12:53 PM
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Yeah, okay. Christians are being "persecuted". Throw them in the arena and loose the lions. Whatever. Maybe their religion is declining due to obsolescence or a lack of interest? "Market Forces", if you will? Have you ever noticed that when people come to this country from say, Iran, the first thing that happens is that generally religion becomes somewhat less important to them? It's because many of them have come here to escape the tyranny of overbearing religion that has acquired the power of state endorsement. But, now we have a bunch of morons running around calling "Christian Nation" and voting for people whom they believe will advance their "Christian Values" but, that America could never become a Theocracy because Christianity is somehow "Different". It's only different here in America because of these words--"The Government shall pass no law regarding an establishment of religion." Hello. Thank you, Thomas Jefferson. "His Christian Majesty King George" and Great Britain were Christian too. There was no such separation under that government at the time and prior. How'd that work out?

Anyone up for a Witch Hunt?

I know it's hard for you guys to understand, but the only reason we have religious freedom in this country, is because we keep it in it's place....a personal choice. How can you understand this when it comes to so many other topics, but not with this one?

Dave
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Last edited by BlueStreak; 07-06-2011 at 01:02 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2011, 01:13 PM
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piece-itpete piece-itpete is offline
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Yes, but singling out religious entities to be prevented from practicing their right of free speech?

Why should, say, the ACLU or the NRA be treated differently than the Catholic Church? Because one is a Christian they can't vote their conscience?

Pete
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2011, 01:39 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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BlueStreak::

I think you've found the justification for a number of things here..

Quote:
Maybe their religion is declining due to obsolescence or a lack of interest? "Market Forces", if you will?
Substitute "Unions" for "religion" in that statement and you got my opinion also..

I don't buy the "christian nation" part of it. But it was clearly a non-secular founding in the creation of the states. And a belief that man's law was subservient to "natural law"..Good solid LIBERAL ideas like the sovereignty of individuals guaranteed by powers higher than paperwork. Thus the "God" references on Fed buildings and currency that just itch your hide..

I'll fight to keep it secular -- but not to point of cutting that tie-back to "natural law".

Look man.. I moved to the very BUCKLE of the Bible Belt. I'm no bible-thumping, wine sucking churchmouse.. And I moved from the vast emptiness of crystal worshippers and tree-huggers in the Socialist state of California. Notice the Diff? Yeah. Folks are more disciplined in their personal lives. They are not physical or psychological slobs. Have they burned crosses on my lawn? Piled Bibles on my porch? Tried to get into my kids head? No.. Not at all. We chat about it like adults. I show interest in their summer bible schools, and work programs with the poor. We chat about our "mixed marraige". My daughter who I raised as a non-affiliated believer in natural law -- is constantly invited to join in youth group activities. And indeed many of the humongeous churches have the most beautiful teenage coffeehouses and entertainment that you've ever seen. I'm DELIGHTED that she participates.

Politically -- It's a hell of an improvement over California. Much less stress on me personally. And I'll oppose them when they're wrong without any fear of being rejected or social outcasting.

The only major conflicts you really got indicating ANY threat of Theocracy (from Christians at any rate) are Abortion and Gay Rights. There are minor skirmishes about "faith based funding" but those are largely non-partisian. If I'm wrong on this let me know. All of that needs to handled rationally and consistently. Both sides are gonna have to moderate to get to rational and consistent..

Quote:
But, now we have a bunch of morons running around calling "Christian Nation" and voting for people whom they believe will advance their "Christian Values" but, that America could never become a Theocracy because Christianity is somehow "Different". It's only different here in America because of these words--"The Government shall pass no law regarding an establishment of religion."
Besides the 1st amendment, there is ANOTHER important protection against Theocracy that you should consider... Article VI.3


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The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
That is just as important (to me anyway). Because BOTH sides need to ponder this one seriously. Not only does pre-empt a Theocracy, it also disallows that religious affilation should ever be a consideration for office..
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  #14  
Old 07-06-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post
BlueStreak::

Substitute "Unions" for "religion" in that statement and you got my opinion also.. Sad, but true.

I have lived in the "Bible Belt", too, Man. Since 1986. The reason neither of us has experienced any trouble for not being as devout as some of these people is because the Constitution stands between us and them. One thing I'll give them is they do seem to respect that......so far. But, give them a government that lends its influence to help as they "Prosletize" and "Spread the Word" and watch what happens. "Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching as to War!", Bud. Anyone whose beliefs don't affirm theirs will pay the price. You can bet on it.

Besides the 1st amendment, there is ANOTHER important protection against Theocracy that you should consider... Article VI.3

Do you really think I hadn't considered that.

That is just as important (to me anyway). Because BOTH sides need to ponder this one seriously. Not only does pre-empt a Theocracy, it also disallows that religious affilation should ever be a consideration for office..
Abso-friggin'-lutely!
Let me share one small story with you;
It won't drive you into my camp, but at least it should give you some insight;

My Mother had seven children, four boys and three girls. I was the youngest. We were raised in Ohio in the 1940s through the 1970s. My mother was a deeply religious woman raised in a religious household, her family was staunchly Republican. She was determined that at least one of her sons was GOING to be a pious man and become a Reverend. This was her dream. By the time I was a small child all of the others had all disappointed her. Sooo.......,

To shorten it up and get to the point............

One fine Sunday morning, she woke me up and commanded me to get up and ready for church. Being about 10-12 years old, I was beginning to fell a little rebellious, and I told her that I didn't "want" to go to church.............

When she finished whipping me with the cord she tore off of lamp on my night stand, she made me sit in church all morning, (With welts from my shoulder blades, down to the backs of my knees.) under the threat that if I had told anyone, or embarrassed her by crying, that there was "...more where THAT came from." It was a very stoic Sunday morning. Too many of them were.

"You're going to accept Jesus Christ if I have to beat him into you!" Thanks, Mom.

Don't ever try to tell me that religious folk, even Christians aren't capable of such things again. It won't work. I'll never buy it.

And when I see that smug, glazed over, "We have cornered the truth, and we're gonna help you find it too!" look in the eyes of some smug, obsessed , self righteous jackass like Bachmann, Palin, Santorum, Hannity or Beck et al, as they spew their propaganda.....Oh, yes it does give me the creeps.

Damn right it does.

Always will.

Dave
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Last edited by BlueStreak; 07-06-2011 at 03:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-06-2011, 02:58 PM
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I've seen evil. I've seen what it masquerades as. Trust me, it tells you you're free to believe as you wish, and then makes your life hell if you dare to do so. It tells you that it's way is the only true way to find God and achieve salvation and that all others are false. Stick whatever name you want on it. It's all the same game.
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Last edited by BlueStreak; 07-06-2011 at 03:00 PM.
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  #16  
Old 07-06-2011, 03:22 PM
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I was a methodist (United Church in Canada), Florence was RC, we no longer attend church since it iss our personal opinion that the churches have more interest themselves as organizations than they do in teaching. I have briefly studied other religions and found some interesting thoughts, Frex "That which is unpleasant to you, do not to your neighbor. That is the whole law and the rest but it's exposition" from Rabbi Hillel.

It was fairly late in life when I realized that to love thy neighbour as thyself implicity requires that you love yourself, elso loving others is impossible. I did not learn any of that in any church. Thuogh when I was attending standards meetings or lecturing abroad I would go to evensong - just to hear the organ, the king of instruments.
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  #17  
Old 07-06-2011, 03:47 PM
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If you're so "Abso-friggin'-lutely!" about Article VI.3 -- then how's cum the 1st thing I hear from lefties parsing candidates is "how religious they are" or "what are their biblical beliefs"?

No religious test -- means religious beliefs are also "not relevent" to holding office. Protects Bachmann and Atheists as well. (and especially difficult cases like Kennedys and Romneys..) Taking the oath to uphold the Constitution is more important and OUGHT to be enforced after the swearing-in.

But given your personal nightmares -- I can understand. So I'll help you out when I can to make certain that govt power is never usurped for the purpose of "religious abuse" of any kind. I just can't cuddle up to AU because they fall on the wrong side of a lot of important arguments that I have to win. For instance school choice, and the true (unfiltered, uncensored) celebration of multicultural roots..
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  #18  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
I was a methodist (United Church in Canada), Florence was RC, we no longer attend church since it iss our personal opinion that the churches have more interest themselves as organizations than they do in teaching. I have briefly studied other religions and found some interesting thoughts, Frex "That which is unpleasant to you, do not to your neighbor. That is the whole law and the rest but it's exposition" from Rabbi Hillel.

It was fairly late in life when I realized that to love thy neighbour as thyself implicity requires that you love yourself, elso loving others is impossible. I did not learn any of that in any church. Thuogh when I was attending standards meetings or lecturing abroad I would go to evensong - just to hear the organ, the king of instruments.
I too was raised Methodist. As you did, I also briefly studied other religions. One thing that struck me were the similarities between the teachings of Christ and those of Bhudda. Obviously there are differences, reincarnation, for example is not accepted in Christianity. But all of the basic daily life type lessons are the same. An excellent book that illustrates this is "Living Bhudda, Living Christ". Google it up. Another is "Bhudda and Jesus as Brothers".

Dave
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  #19  
Old 07-07-2011, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flacaltenn View Post
If you're so "Abso-friggin'-lutely!" about Article VI.3 -- then how's cum the 1st thing I hear from lefties parsing candidates is "how religious they are" or "what are their biblical beliefs"?

I have no idea. Why don't you ask one someday.

No religious test -- means religious beliefs are also "not relevent" to holding office. Protects Bachmann and Atheists as well. (and especially difficult cases like Kennedys and Romneys..) Taking the oath to uphold the Constitution is more important and OUGHT to be enforced after the swearing-in.

Correct. A public office holder can believe in whatever they wish. So long as they never attempt to declare their beliefs a "State Religion".

But given your personal nightmares -- I can understand. So I'll help you out when I can to make certain that govt power is never usurped for the purpose of "religious abuse" of any kind. I just can't cuddle up to AU because they fall on the wrong side of a lot of important arguments that I have to win. For instance school choice, and the true (unfiltered, uncensored) celebration of multicultural roots..
Uh...... Thanks, I guess.

Dave
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  #20  
Old 07-07-2011, 08:52 AM
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" it also disallows that religious affilation should ever be a consideration for office."

Official consideration anyway. Although we have finally elected a Islamisict

Seriously I can see that being used to disallow anyone who admits to believing in religion from voting. A flexible living document and all.

Rob, agreed that the organ is King of instruments. My (Lutheran) church got a real one when I was 12. The dedication was a religious experience, the church filled to overflowing, the sound of the organ floating on top of the singing....

But then, when the youth group was getting a tour of it (all three 'stories') the organist used Bachs t&f in D minor and the Pastor yelled at her saying it wasn't a toy

Pete
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