Actual Armed Citizens

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

MerryLander:

The FBI (not the BATF) DOES keep voluminous records of how guns are used. I posted some of those statistics here.. Have no idea why you think it's a REP conspiracy... It's NOT horsefeathers that gun sales and permits go up dramatically every time the left threatens more legislation or takes over a wing of the state.. It's fact MerryLander....

The Washington Post ran a series of articles recently ex[ressly done to illustrate the fact that tracing firearms used in crimes back to their source is not being done. The reason being that Congress forbade ATF to do so. They even uncovered two of the major suppliers.

Back when the government did not have a standing army the idea that ordinary people could overthrow the central government may have seemed plausible, today the concept is ludicrous.

In the debates the subject of the militia(s) was raised on at least nine separate occasions. The idea of "regulation" was concern that if the militia was needed to repel invaders they wanted compatible weapons, not 13 different calibers, etc.

Of course the idea of the militia repelling invaders was shot full of holes when an Irish regiment burnt down the White House. The place where Madison temporarily setup government is about ten miles from me, the building still stands.

[flacaltenn]

MerryLander:

I THINK (not sure) you're referring to a proposal to "fingerprint" the ballastics of every weapon so that it can be identified if a crime is committed and a bullet is recovered...

THAT is a non-starter.. The govt can't possibly make such a program work.. OR ---

maybe you're referring to the insistence of some on the left that the Insta-Check database be retained, applications and all so that ANY govt agency has access to it.. Not gonna happen because that's defacto registration of each sale..

I know of no other legislative edict that "prevents" the tracing of guns used in crimes. If it was sold thru a Fed registered dealer, it can be traced. Don't know whether you're complaining about a LAW, a regulation or whether you think the REPS blocked some law/regulation that should be ennacted...

Don't get your pants in a wad til we figure this out. Eh?

Of course, we just found out last month that our own BATF was running THOUSANDs of military weapons across the southern border KNOWING that they would end up in drug cartel hands.. Betcha the paperwork on THOSE sales were just perfect and traceable...

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

MerryLander:

I THINK (not sure) you're referring to a proposal to "fingerprint" the ballastics of every weapon so that it can be identified if a crime is committed and a bullet is recovered...

Do ypu have trouble with the English language? The article(s) referred to tracing the actual firearm back to their source. It had SFA to do with 'fingerprinting' ammo.

Your first mistake was stating "I Think".

[flacaltenn]

MerryLander:

You're gonna have to help me out here. In English please..

Some nebulous "GOP conspiracy to prevent the BATF from tracing a firearm back to it's source" -- Got a citation? More specific?? I'll stop guessing until you help out..

[JonL]

Frankly, I'm tired of reading all the BS about what the wonderful founders thought and wrote as if they were themselves each gods. The most important ideal the founders built into our government and constitution was that things CHANGE and the constitution must be a living document that can also change. The 2nd amendment is an AMENDMENT. It could be repealed. It could be modified. That, IMO, is no accident. Certainly the founders couldn't imagine automatic weapons, much less Blackhawk helicopters, nerve gas, or nuclear bombs. But they DID imagine that the world would be a different place in 50, 100, 200 years and built the idea that every generation has to interpret and mold the basic principles in the constitution to fit the times. Quotes about how flintlocks and muskets fit into 18th century politics when the enemy had to get across the Atlantic ocean in square-rigged SAILBOATS are fucking meaningless in today's world. Get a grip. "Strict constructionists," and all you who quote chapter and verse about a time in which a guy with the best weapon available would be lucky to give you a flesh wound from 100 feet away should grow up and look around a little bit. Sheesh.

[HatchetJack]

You are right, times were different back then. All they had to worry about were Redsticks, rattlesnakes and redcoats.
Had they known about drugs, crips, bloods, sexual predators, child molestors, serial killers, terrorists, coyotes
wolves, rabid dogs, meth heads and all the other bad guys in this corrupt
world we now live in they would have made it a crime to even question the amendment.
It's really not worth arguing about because I'm not about to turn my weapons
over cause some hippie mf'r thinks we live in la la land with bunnies hopping
around and we should all hold hands and sing songs.
Why a political party would try and take away rights from the majority to
gain a few minority votes is beyond me. It did not work then and I doubt they
ever try it again.

[JonL]

Originally Posted by HatchetJack

You are right, times were different back then. All they had to worry about were Redsticks, rattlesnakes and redcoats.
Had they known about drugs, crips, bloods, sexual predators, child molestors, serial killers, terrorists, coyotes
wolves, rabid dogs, meth heads and all the other bad guys in this corrupt
world we now live in they would have made it a crime to even question the amendment.
It's really not worth arguing about because I'm not about to turn my weapons
over cause some hippie mf'r thinks we live in la la land with bunnies hopping
around and we should all hold hands and sing songs.
Why a political party would try and take away rights from the majority to
gain a few minority votes is beyond me. It did not work then and I doubt they
ever try it again.

You're right. It is today's issues, and today's world that should frame the debate. If the framers could've foreseen the power and lethality of current weaponry, they may have written the amendment rather differently.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by JonL

Frankly, I'm tired of reading all the BS about what the wonderful founders thought and wrote as if they were themselves each gods. The most important ideal the founders built into our government and constitution was that things CHANGE and the constitution must be a living document that can also change. The 2nd amendment is an AMENDMENT. It could be repealed. It could be modified. That, IMO, is no accident. Certainly the founders couldn't imagine automatic weapons, much less Blackhawk helicopters, nerve gas, or nuclear bombs. But they DID imagine that the world would be a different place in 50, 100, 200 years and built the idea that every generation has to interpret and mold the basic principles in the constitution to fit the times. Quotes about how flintlocks and muskets fit into 18th century politics when the enemy had to get across the Atlantic ocean in square-rigged SAILBOATS are fucking meaningless in today's world. Get a grip. "Strict constructionists," and all you who quote chapter and verse about a time in which a guy with the best weapon available would be lucky to give you a flesh wound from 100 feet away should grow up and look around a little bit. Sheesh.

QFT. Spot on.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by merrylander

Back when the government did not have a standing army the idea that ordinary people could overthrow the central government may have seemed plausible, today the concept is ludicrous.

Completely defeating the concept of the 2A, as drafted.

STRICT Constitutionalism is a non-intellectual copout.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by JonL

Frankly, I'm tired of reading all the BS about what the wonderful founders thought and wrote as if they were themselves each gods. The most important ideal the founders built into our government and constitution was that things CHANGE and the constitution must be a living document that can also change. The 2nd amendment is an AMENDMENT. It could be repealed. It could be modified. That, IMO, is no accident. Certainly the founders couldn't imagine automatic weapons, much less Blackhawk helicopters, nerve gas, or nuclear bombs. But they DID imagine that the world would be a different place in 50, 100, 200 years and built the idea that every generation has to interpret and mold the basic principles in the constitution to fit the times. Quotes about how flintlocks and muskets fit into 18th century politics when the enemy had to get across the Atlantic ocean in square-rigged SAILBOATS are fucking meaningless in today's world. Get a grip. "Strict constructionists," and all you who quote chapter and verse about a time in which a guy with the best weapon available would be lucky to give you a flesh wound from 100 feet away should grow up and look around a little bit. Sheesh.

+1. Thank You.