Foreign Relations - the Chicago Way

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

After Bibi's recent antics, one could argue that we have no real friends in that area of the world.

Pfft. Its the darnest thing that some folks seem to want to heap the entire dissolution of the relationship between the US and Isreal on Bibi. Yet, we're the ones at the bargainig table providing political cover for Iran's nuke program. Freaking Iran, who have said repeatedly that they want to wipe Isreal off the map.

Meanwhile, while we're negotiating with Iran, we've left a vaccuum in Iraq that Iran has stepping into, and Iran's friends the Houthis have turned Yemen upside down. So, taken to the extreme, one could make the case we've also left the Saudis twisting in the wind 'cuz they've got Iranian forces or friendlies on their northern and southern borders.

Really, what the hell are we doing?

[Pio1980]

I don't think that regardless of our historical relationship and support, we owe them approval on everything they do.

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[whell]

Originally Posted by Pio1980

I don't think that regardless of our historical relationship and support, we owe them approval on everything they do.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I don't disagree. However, historically if you have an ally, you don't act in ways that are potentially / probably harmful to their interests.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

After Bibi's recent antics, one could argue that we have no real friends in that area of the world.

I was thinking the same thing.

John

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

Pfft. Its the darnest thing that some folks seem to want to heap the entire dissolution of the relationship between the US and Isreal on Bibi.

Of course, that's not what finn said.

Yet, we're the ones at the bargainig table providing political cover for Iran's nuke program. Freaking Iran, who have said repeatedly that they want to wipe Isreal off the map.

You seem to be forgetting that there are five other countries involved in hammering out this deal and we also don't know what will emerge. Plus, with the leaks all coming from Israel (and Israel via the Republicans) I'd say we can't put very much faith in them.

Meanwhile, while we're negotiating with Iran, we've left a vaccuum in Iraq that Iran has stepping into,

This was always guaranteed to happen once Bush/Cheney blew things up. The Shia majority was always going to look to Iran for a return to stability. And AQI/ISIS was born out of the chaos we created.

and Iran's friends the Houthis have turned Yemen upside down. So, taken to the extreme, one could make the case we've also left the Saudis twisting in the wind 'cuz they've got Iranian forces or friendlies on their northern and southern borders.

The Saudis, to a large degree, are responsible for this mess by funding the Salafi fighters like ISIS and the Khorasan Group so it's as much a case of chickens coming home to roost as anything else. That being said, we've not hung the Saudis out to dry. We're helping them in their operations against the Houthis and AQAP.

Really, what the hell are we doing?

Whatever we're doing, it's better than the alternative. If we paid attention to our "ally" Israel (and McCain and Graham), we'd walk away from the talks and bomb Iran.

[nailer]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I was thinking the same thing.

John

Thinking of all the friends we lost due to the failure of our political leaders after 9/11 saddens me.

[whell]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You seem to be forgetting that there are five other countries involved in hammering out this deal and we also don't know what will emerge. Plus, with the leaks all coming from Israel (and Israel via the Republicans) I'd say we can't put very much faith in them.

Nope. What I'm not forgetting is that there's only one country in that negotiation that is truly capable - though I'm not sure about willing - to hold Iran accountable for anything that's agreed to.

Originally Posted by Boreas

This was always guaranteed to happen once Bush/Cheney blew things up. The Shia majority was always going to look to Iran for a return to stability. And AQI/ISIS was born out of the chaos we created.

Oh ferfuksake. Things in that region of the world were "blown up" long before Bush/Cheney showed up. And the AQI / ISIS observation is laughable.

Originally Posted by Boreas

The Saudis, to a large degree, are responsible for this mess by funding the Salafi fighters like ISIS and the Khorasan Group so it's as much a case of chickens coming home to roost as anything else. That being said, we've not hung the Saudis out to dry. We're helping them in their operations against the Houthis and AQAP.

Factions within the Kingdom are, yes. Though lately there are reports circulating that we provided some funding for the Salafi bunch too. What a mess!

Originally Posted by Boreas

Whatever we're doing, it's better than the alternative. If we paid attention to our "ally" Israel (and McCain and Graham), we'd walk away from the talks and bomb Iran.

Idiotic. No one supports "bombing Iran". Attacking their ability to go nuclear, yes. But no one is advocating an attack on the legit gov't of Iran (such as it is).

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

Nope. What I'm not forgetting is that there's only one country in that negotiation that is truly capable - though I'm not sure about willing - to hold Iran accountable for anything that's agreed to.

American Exceptionalism shows it's ugly ass. Russia could handle this all by themselves. So could China and even Germany. And, apart from anything else, even though we have the capability, we would never undertake such a thing on our own. We'd need the cover of a "Coalition of the Willing" and UN sanction.

Oh ferfuksake. Things in that region of the world were "blown up" long before Bush/Cheney showed up. And the AQI / ISIS observation is laughable.

I suspect the average Iraqi (or Syrian or Yemeni or Lybian or even Israeli) would strongly disagree.

Factions within the Kingdom are, yes. Though lately there are reports circulating that we provided some funding for the Salafi bunch too. What a mess!

We probably funded them indirectly through the good offices of Prince Bandar bin Sultan. As for the "factions", they're either largely or entirely within the House of Saud.

Yes, what a mess indeed!

Idiotic. No one supports "bombing Iran". Attacking their ability to go nuclear, yes. But no one is advocating an attack on the legit gov't of Iran (such as it is).

Of course they do and do you really think the Iranian "man on the street" or, for that matter any man on the street, would view "surgical strikes on the Iranian nuclear infrastructure as anything other than "bombing Iran?

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by whell

Pfft. Its the darnest thing that some folks seem to want to heap the entire dissolution of the relationship between the US and Isreal on Bibi. Yet, we're the ones at the bargainig table providing political cover for Iran's nuke program. Freaking Iran, who have said repeatedly that they want to wipe Isreal off the map.

Meanwhile, while we're negotiating with Iran, we've left a vaccuum in Iraq that Iran has stepping into, and Iran's friends the Houthis have turned Yemen upside down. So, taken to the extreme, one could make the case we've also left the Saudis twisting in the wind 'cuz they've got Iranian forces or friendlies on their northern and southern borders.

Really, what the hell are we doing?

Supporting Israel hasn't worked. We jump through hoops to pander to them for what? Religious fairytales aside, what has Israel ever really done for us other than serve as constant magnet for unrest? It's a waste of time and an exercise in pointless, dogmatic repetition of bombings, peace talks, Zionist expansion, more bombings, more peace talks, more bulldozers clearing the way for Zionist Expansion, more bombi...................................

Are you getting the picture? "Holy Land" my ass. There is nothing "Holy" about that bloody side show. Never has been and never will be.

Dave

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Supporting Israel hasn't worked. We jump through hoops to pander to them for what?...

GUILT.

And Zionistic fervor continues to beat us over the head with it.

Fuck 'em.