Egypt - We love democracy! Or do we?

[Fast_Eddie]

I thought I'd start a new thread. I've mentioned this a couple of times, but this is worth watching.

The protests in Egypt could be bad for us. Really bad. What are the people clamoring for? A voice in government. Democracy! That’s awesome isn’t it?! Exactly what we wanted. Democracy in the heart of the Middle East. Obama must be really excited about this one, don’t you think?

Not so fast. This affair in Egypt is bad news. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is probably just as bad as the protesters say. It is certainly a fact, as the protestors point out, that he has been president for 30 years. He has maintained power by dubious means. Elections in which he is the only candidate. State control of media that only spread his point of view. Unlimited extension of emergency law allowing him to essentially imprison anyone for no reason for any length of time. Bad things to be sure.

So why hasn’t President Obama come out and made a statement in support of Egyptian democracy? Why isn’t our government making ovations of support for the spirit of democracy in Egypt? Why are members of the Israeli parliament speaking out in favor of Mubarak?

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news...upport-mubarak

Israeli news is chiding the Obama administration for squandering opportunities to support dictator Mubarak:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/141992

What the heck is going on?

This is what’s going on. The “opposition” to Mubarak is an outfit called the Muslim Brotherhood. Google these guys.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/mb.htm

http://www.meforum.org/687/the-musli...uest-of-europe

And here’s one you won’t want to miss dated Oct. 12 2010. “Muslim Brotherhood Declares War on U.S.”

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=214245

That is the cry for Democracy in Egypt. Oust the admittedly lame dictator Mubarak and freely elect a terrorist organization that has declared war on the U.S. It isn’t like we haven’t already seen this happen. Hezbollah, officially classified as a terrorist organization by the U.S., the group responsible for the 1983 bombing of a Marine Barracks in Beirut, have just won free, Democratic elections in Lebanon.

Okay, so, what would you do if you were President Obama? Here’s a pretty good look at the predicament:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...egypt-protests

And what he says at the end is spot on. “There is no revolution in Egypt, yet. But, hypothetically, if Mubarak were to fall, the consequences would be incalculable – for Israel and the peace process, for the ascending power of Iran, for US influence across the Middle East, and for the future rise and spread of militant, anti-western Islam. And not least, for 80 million Egyptians.”

But, you know, the most important thing to talk about on FOX News right now is big government and tax cuts.

[Brother_Karl]

Yeah, in the Middle East, when dictators fall, Islamist extremists tend to rise.

A lot of Middle Eastern people are pissed off at Israel, and rightly so. Mubarak is an asshole and you wont find me mourning his fall from power. If President Obama wishes for real peace in the Middle East, he should welcome moves towards democracy - because a peace enforced by opression and dictatorship is not real peace at all.


Good thread.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Brother_Karl

If President Obama wishes for real peace in the Middle East, he should welcome moves towards democracy...

I couldn't agree more.

The big issue here, however, is that free people have been known to act in unpredictable ways.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Brother_Karl

A lot of Middle Eastern people are pissed off at Israel, and rightly so. Mubarak is an asshole and you wont find me mourning his fall from power. If President Obama wishes for real peace in the Middle East, he should welcome moves towards democracy - because a peace enforced by opression and dictatorship is not real peace at all.

I would certainly agree that there are good resons for Arabs to be angry with Israel. I can see both sides of it, to be sure. No doubt, from time to time, an Arab will strap bombs to himself and kill a load of folks. You have to take that pretty seriously. On the flip side, though, there are Arabs who may be guilty of little more than throwing stones who are being held in conditions not much better than Concentration Camps. I think it's fair to say some reform is in order.

I'm not defending Mubarak. He does sound like a pretty deplorable dude. But, as you say, "Yeah, in the Middle East, when dictators fall, Islamist extremists tend to rise." I'm a pretty open minded guy, but I'm a little concerned with these folks gaining legitimate power. That's why I don't understand your next statement. Are you saying that the rise of extreeminst to legitimate power will lead to more peace? Woah, maybe in the long, long run if somehow they develop some ability to have some kind of diplomatic resolution to their concerns and no longer feel the need to use terrorism to try to bring about change. But I don't see more peace in any short time frame- like my lifetime- if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Egypt.

[Fast_Eddie]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I couldn't agree more.

The big issue here, however, is that free people have been known to act in unpredictable ways.

So no one is concerned about the people we now call "terrorists", who have declared war on the U.S. becoming the legitimate power in a country the size of Egypt? What if a free Afghanistan somewhere down the line decides to elect Osama Bin Laden President?

[finnbow]

The Muslim Brotherhood, as an opponent to Mubarek, has given its backing to the protests. However, the MB doesn't appear to be the driving force behind the protests, nor is it clear that they will have a grasp on power if the protests succeed in deposing Mubarek (which remains doubtful, given his strength).

Nobel peace laureate and Egyptian opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei, former director of the IAEA, also backs these protests and is underway to Cairo to joint the protests and lead in a transition government, if the protests succeed and if he's called upon to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12300164

Bottom line - We can't prop up despots forever while claiming to be pro-democracy. We're one or the other. Our propping of the Royal Family in Saudi Arabia had a lot to do with the genesis of Al Qaeda as well as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Maybe Obama's preacher (Rev. Wright) had it right after all, "The chickens are coming home to roost."

[Brother_Karl]

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

Are you saying that the rise of extreeminst to legitimate power will lead to more peace?

I am saying that while there is dictatorship and opression there can never be peace.

Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie

So no one is concerned about the people we now call "terrorists", who have declared war on the U.S. becoming the legitimate power in a country the size of Egypt? What if a free Afghanistan somewhere down the line decides to elect Osama Bin Laden President?

Of course I am concerned. But I am also concerned about dictators. As far as I am concerned Mubarak and the MB are practically as bad as eachother. But I say that it is unfair to compare the MB to Osama Bin Laden in such a way.

Originally Posted by finnbow

the MB doesn't appear to be the driving force behind the protests, nor is it clear that they will have a grasp on power if the protests succeed in deposing Mubarek.

This is true. But it was also true during the Iranian Revolution. Just because it is not the driving force, does not mean that it will not be the main victor.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Brother_Karl

... it is unfair to compare the MB to Osama Bin Laden in such a way.

Not really. Sayyid Qutb, the founder of the MB, was the inspiration of nearly all other Islamic extremist movements, including Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda's second-in-charge, Ayman al-Zawahiri, started his life as an extremist with the MB.

[Brother_Karl]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Not really. Sayyid Qutb, the founder of the MB, was the inspiration of nearly all other Islamic extremist movements, including Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda's second-in-charge, Ayman al-Zawahiri, started his life as an extremist with the MB.

Yeah, ok.

[piece-itpete]

The ancient Chinese curse has come to life.

I still hope for the best though, scary as it is.

Pete