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09-23-2015, 06:16 AM
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The VW case is getting to be even more interesting since the same technique seems to have been used by US diesel engine manufacturers fifteen years ago to fool the EPA. This is from Daniel Carder an engineer at West Virginia University.
Quote:
Carder belonged to a 15-member West Virginia University team that pioneered portable emissions testing as part of a 1998 settlement between the U.S. Justice Department and several heavy duty diesel engine makers including Caterpillar Inc (CAT.N) and Cummins Engine Co (CMI.N).
The manufacturers agreed to pay $83.4 million in civil penalties after federal officials found evidence that they were selling heavy duty diesel engines equipped with “defeat devices” that allowed the engines to meet EPA emission standards during testing but disabled the emission control system during normal highway driving.
When the news about Volkswagen broke last Friday, Carder heard from some of the heavy diesel engine manufacturers that were part of the consent decree.
"They saw what had happened and called to say: 'Good job, you guys,'" Carder said. "Some folks said: 'How did they not learn from our mistakes 15 years ago?'"
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-researchers-idUSKCN0RM2D720150923"] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RM2D720150923[/URL]
Above link is no longer active. Found a new one.
http://www.fullhn.com.s3-website-eu-...node_id=663504
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White Christian Nationalism:
Freedom for us, order for everyone else, and violence for those who transgress.
Last edited by Rajoo; 09-23-2015 at 03:36 PM.
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09-23-2015, 09:35 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego via Vermilion Ohio and Points Between
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
I brought an Audi back from Germany when I moved back in 1986. Not only was it expensive to maintain, but electrical problems were frequent.
Moreover, Porsche/Audi/Mercedes/BMW dealers here try to impress upon you how special you are for owning a German car and expect you to reach deeply into your pockets with a privileged smile on your face.
I'd never own anything but a German car in Germany, but I'd never again own one here. In my experience, German cars are nowhere near as reliable as their Japanese counterparts.
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Yeah I think Toyota, Mazda and Honda are hard to beat for the money.
Once I pay off the house I am thinking about an F-150 though a big red one lol.
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Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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09-23-2015, 09:37 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego via Vermilion Ohio and Points Between
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas
Having worked in a Porsche-Audi dealership and managed a BMW dealership, I can more or less confirm the above. But it's a bit overstated.
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Let me ask, is a mustache required for all the guys that work in finance?
lol
Just something I remembered from buying my first new car.
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Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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09-23-2015, 09:39 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
Beyond these issues, most German cars are outfitted with all imaginable bells and whistles for the US market to help drive the notion that high cost equals luxury. In Germany, you can buy BMW's with cloth seats, no AC, etc., if you are so inclined. Not so here.
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In Germany is the price for a no-frills BMW comparable to say buying a Honda Accord or some other mid-price car here?
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Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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09-23-2015, 09:40 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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The environmentally politically incorrect part of me does kind of like the idea of always passing the California smog test. If I had a VW that was running well I would not be in a rush for the recall.
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Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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09-23-2015, 10:12 AM
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Reformed Know-Nothing
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MoCo, MD
Posts: 25,857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icenine
In Germany is the price for a no-frills BMW comparable to say buying a Honda Accord or some other mid-price car here?
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For comparison sake, you can get a BMW 218i in Germany for 27.650,00 € or a Honda Civic with a 1.8L engine (a lesser car, IMO) for 23.390,00 € (including a 19% value added tax that isn't charged on exports or for American service members in Germany). Without VAT, that would be 22,396 € for the 218i (~$25K at current exchange rates).
In the USA, the 2 series smallest engine is a 2.8L and that model starts at $34,850 ( plus local sales tax and excise taxes), or about $37K with a 6% tax.
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09-23-2015, 10:26 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
For comparison sake, you can get a BMW 218i in Germany for 27.650,00 € or a Honda Civic with a 1.8L engine (a lesser car, IMO) for 23.390,00 € (including a 19% value added tax that isn't charged on exports or for American service members in Germany). Without VAT, that would be 22,396 € for the 218i (~$25K at current exchange rates).
In the USA, the 2 series smallest engine is a 2.8L and that model starts at $34,850 (plus local sales tax and excise taxes), or about $37K with a 6% tax.
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Are Hondas and other non-EU cars subject to tariffs? If so, have Japanese car makers begun making cars in the EU and does that exempt them from tariffs?
I seem to recall that Hondas were made in the UK at one point in a joint venture with the old Leyland. Also Renault and Nissan are intertwined somehow.
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Last edited by Boreas; 09-23-2015 at 10:29 AM.
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09-23-2015, 10:32 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego via Vermilion Ohio and Points Between
Posts: 11,536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
For comparison sake, you can get a BMW 218i in Germany for 27.650,00 € or a Honda Civic with a 1.8L engine (a lesser car, IMO) for 23.390,00 € (including a 19% value added tax that isn't charged on exports or for American service members in Germany). Without VAT, that would be 22,396 € for the 218i (~$25K at current exchange rates).
In the USA, the 2 series smallest engine is a 2.8L and that model starts at $34,850 (plus local sales tax and excise taxes), or about $37K with a 6% tax.
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So there a BMW is much more competitive and seems to be a wash (as far as price) with the Honda Civic. In other words marketing the Beemer as a marvel of German engineering in the USA is a factor behind the price increase here.
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Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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09-23-2015, 10:35 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego via Vermilion Ohio and Points Between
Posts: 11,536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas
Are Hondas and other non-EU cars subject to tariffs? If so, have Japanese car makers begun making cars in the EU and does that exempt them from tariffs?
I seem to recall that Hondas were made in the UK at one point in a joint venture with the old Leyland. Also Renault and Nissan are intertwined somehow.
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My departed CRV was assembled in the UK at the Swindon plant.
Honda has assembly plants all over the world.
__________________
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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09-23-2015, 11:04 AM
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Reformed Know-Nothing
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MoCo, MD
Posts: 25,857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icenine
So there a BMW is much more competitive and seems to be a wash (as far as price) with the Honda Civic. In other words marketing the Beemer as a marvel of German engineering in the USA is a factor behind the price increase here.
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In the US, pretty much all BMW's are considered luxury class cars due to only larger engine choices and all the bells and whistles forcing luxury car pricing. In Germany, they tend to distinguish between a BMW with smaller engine, cloth seats and limited do-dads with those with bigger engines and performance options.
We went to BMW-Welt in Munich last week and saw some pretty extraordinary stuff. Most impressive to me were the new i8 and the M6 Coupe. The M6 Gran Coupé on display was quite something with nearly 30,000 Euros of extras piled upon its base ~130,000 Euro base price.
FWIW, Audi has made a big turnaround in Germany in recent years in terms of prestige, quality and performance. I rented an S-line A4 Avant (station wagon) turbo-diesel and that thing just flew on the Autobahn. It's sweet spot for Autobahn cruising was 160-170 kph (95-100 mph) while getting staggeringly good mileage. Very nice.
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Last edited by finnbow; 09-23-2015 at 11:06 AM.
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