"Two N.Y.P.D. Officers Are Killed in Brooklyn Ambush; Suspect Commits Suicide" NYT

[Gusjay Gupta]

Originally Posted by whell

Are you telling me that there's no conceivable way that it could have happened?

I'm saying Wilson's testimony is incredulous and he was never seriously questioned about what happened.

209:5 - cigarellos are in Brown's right hand
209:22 - Brown slammed the door shut
210:16 - Brown's hands are up
211:1 - Brown is hitting Wilson with his right hand
211:7 - Brown has the box in his right hand
211:10 - Doesn't recall seeing cigarellos on the ground
211:18 - Cigarellos are now in Brown's left hand
212:12 - Brown says to Johnson, "Here man, hold these."

In summary: Wilson claims Brown slammed the door shut twice, had his hands (plural) in the air trying to get into the vehicle, hit Wilson with his right hand while holding the box in his right hand, is pulling at Wilson while the cigarellos are now in his left hand....then he STOPS what he is doing, turns to Johnson and says, "Here man, hold these," while Wilson is grabbing at Brown's right arm. After handing Johnson the cigarillos, he then resumes his altercation with Wilson.

Everything I wrote is right here:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/pag...estimony/1472/

These are Wilson's actual words. He was never questioned about the implausibility of his statements.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

.... a criminal who has just committed 4-5 crimes in the course of twenty minutes.....

Alleged crimes and only two at that: strong-arm robbery (with conflicting evidence as to whether Wilson knew of it) and jaywalking. Every other "crime" is based upon, and therefore depends upon, Wilson's testimony.

John

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Gusjay Gupta

I'm saying Wilson's testimony is incredulous and he was never seriously questioned about what happened.

"Incredible" as in impossible to credit i.e. believe.

"Incredulous", unable to believe, is what you are when exposed to something that's incredible.

Otherwise, I'm totally with you.

John

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I realize that liberal orthodoxy is supposed to compel me to show solidarity with those perpetuating the "hands up, don't shoot" execution meme. However, I just don't see the grave injustice of a criminal who has just committed 4-5 crimes in the course of twenty minutes getting shot after assaulting a cop and going for his gun (or even taking actions that a reasonable cop could interpret that way).

I'm not saying Brown deserved to die (nobody deserves to die and I'm against the death penalty, FWIW), but that getting shot in the course of committing 4-5 crimes is an unfortunate consequence of the actions Brown chose to take. Thankfully, I was raised smart enough to know that stupid shit like that could result in me getting killed. YMMV.

Right. Brown is criminal and stupid, and therefore if he gets shot, you don't care. But I recall well that the 'not caring' came first, before all the argument.

If facts and truth are so vital that they are the reason you refuse to care, what explains your wanting to claim the evidence says more than it does?

Anyway, as you say, he was shot "after assaulting a cop." Isn't that word 'after' any kind of a problem for you? Basically, 'during' is justified, 'after' isn't, is it?

So really, it all hinges on whether Brown was 'charging' as alleged, when the deadly shots hit. Why don't you join me in wishing there could be a trial to try to get at the facts and truth of this disputed matter?

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

But I recall well that the 'not cariing' came first, before all the argument.

This, to me, encapsulated the grand jury decision in a nutshell: "Don't know, don't care. Next."

It's the exact result that the Prosecutor's Office wanted to produce with their dog and pony show. Great work, gang!

John

[Gusjay Gupta]

Originally Posted by Boreas

"Incredible" as in impossible to credit i.e. believe.

"Incredulous", unable to believe, is what you are when exposed to something that's incredible.

Otherwise, I'm totally with you.

John

Ha ha. I stand corrected.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Right. Brown is criminal and stupid, and therefore if he gets shot, you don't care. But I recall well that the 'not cariing' came first, before all the argument.

Truthfully, I still don't care that much that a street thug's mistakes got him shot and I certainly don't care enough to pretend that a grave injustice was perpetrated, even though liberal orthodoxy seems to dictate that I should.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Truthfully, I still don't care that much that a street thug's mistakes got him shot

What evidence do you have that Mike Brown was a "street thug"? Does he have a criminal record? Was he "gang affiliated"? We know that he stole a $15.00 pack of cigarillos but Dorian Johnson testified that the act totally out of character and really freaked him out.

Or is Johnson a "street thug" too?

John

[whell]

Originally Posted by Gusjay Gupta

I'm saying Wilson's testimony is incredulous and he was never seriously questioned about what happened.

209:5 - cigarellos are in Brown's right hand
209:22 - Brown slammed the door shut
210:16 - Brown's hands are up
211:1 - Brown is hitting Wilson with his right hand
211:7 - Brown has the box in his right hand
211:10 - Doesn't recall seeing cigarellos on the ground
211:18 - Cigarellos are now in Brown's left hand
212:12 - Brown says to Johnson, "Here man, hold these."

In summary: Wilson claims Brown slammed the door shut twice, had his hands (plural) in the air trying to get into the vehicle, hit Wilson with his right hand while holding the box in his right hand, is pulling at Wilson while the cigarellos are now in his left hand....then he STOPS what he is doing, turns to Johnson and says, "Here man, hold these," while Wilson is grabbing at Brown's right arm. After handing Johnson the box, he then resumes his altercation with Wilson.

Everything I wrote is right here:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/pag...estimony/1472/

These are Wilson's actual words. He was never questioned about the implausibility of his statements.

Well, maybe you have the gift of total recall even when someone is attacking you such that you can remember every detail. Most folks don't. Nor was this testimony the single piece of evidence that the GJ had to consider before choosing not to charge Wilson. We can pick the nits out of snippets all day long.

EDIT - by the way, from the page you linked to you can also read Wilson's Police interview from August 2014. This might be more grist for your mill (or not), but take a close look at the top of page six from that interview. Seems to suggest that Brown had the smokes in is left hand and Wilson was holding Brown's right arm at the moment Brown handed off the smokes. Wilson states that Brown "turned to his left" to hand off the smokes. Pretty hard to turn to your left and hand someone something with your right hand.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

What evidence do you have that Mike Brown was a "street thug"? Does he have a criminal record? Was he "gang affiliated"? We know that he stole a $15.00 pack of cigarillos but Dorian Johnson testified that the act totally out of character and really freaked him out.

Or is Johnson a "street thug" too?

John

It seems to me that perpetrating a strong-arm robbery alone defines a street thug. Sticking your head inside a cop's car and going for his gun qualifies too.

In any event, I'm well over a thousand miles from Ferguson and I expressed from the get-go that I really didn't care about events there as there is plenty enough violent crime and shootings in the Baltimore/Washington area to get my attention. I said I'd be willing to accept the grand jury's findings, and any subsequent DOJ findings. That remains so.

I also remain unwilling to act like I care more about this event more than I do or to carry the water of activists who (mistakenly, I believe) wanted to make Michael Brown the poster child of police abuse. The guy took actions that a (seemingly reasonable) cop perceived as a threat and got himself shot in the process. Not my problem.