Religion has had it's time.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?

Yes, without religious brainwashing how would we keep people under control?

(Or convince them that killing is what "God" wants them to do?)

I think you get the picture, Dave. You just don't get the whole picture.

Dave

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by sanford12

I'm not a believer in organized religion but I am in the majority of peoples goodness. This doesn't keep me from carrying protection in areas I deem sketchy. I think you have me by a bit in age but I'm 60 and have seen enough to know that good people of any race/religion can show up in completely unexpected places. I seem to have become less of a cynic as I age, not bad for a natural born introvert. I also think you find what your looking for and the bad seems to be what your seeing. We're looking at things from 2 different perspectives. Bible verses are all well and good if that's what you believe. I have a different view of the world, for lack of a better word I think this may be heaven. If I were to go tomorrow I couldn't bitch. It's been a wonderful life.

I have no plans on going anytime soon since no one could possibly love my Florence as well as I do. We have had 32 blissfully happy years and I want a few more.

An example of why I seem cynical, Florence and I met in a hotel lobby in the east coast blizzard of Feb 11/12 1983. She was a widow I was divorced. Some guy who claimed to be a friend of her late husband tried to hit on her. I simply offered her my protection for the rest of the night. So I got the night clerk to find us two chairs and we sat and talked throughout the night. In the morning we had breakfast exchanged addresses, shook hands and parted, she for home me for the airport and Canada. We wrote to each other, found love and married - all over a handshake. She later told me in a letter that she could not get over the fact that I protected her all that night and did not ask anything in return, that had never been her experience up until that night. That was simply the way I was raised, but I find few men like that these days. So I am just an old fashioned individual.

[icenine]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?

You are not serious are you? I mean the Holocaust and terrorism are just two arguments out of millions that disprove this theory. Then there is the other side of the coin where man commits atrocities believing God is on their side, or more cynically, victims are apostates so their lives do not matter, religion being an justification for almost any form of inhumanity. ISIS is just one example.

Perhaps on an individual level fear of hell probably influences millions. Get a few people together and a political or financial motive however and that fear goes out the window. Plus in an extreme Calvinist idea of pre-destination it would not matter what one did on Earth if God has already decided your fate in the afterlife. I think there was a sect of this offshoot of Calvinism either in early colonial America or early modern Europe who practiced a sort of hedonism based on this but I could be confusing these with the ancient Hedonists. It is early.

[sanford12]

Originally Posted by merrylander

I have no plans on going anytime soon since no one could possibly love my Florence as well as I do. We have had 32 blissfully happy years and I want a few more.

An example of why I seem cynical, Florence and I met in a hotel lobby in the east coast blizzard of Feb 11/12 1983. She was a widow I was divorced. Some guy who claimed to be a friend of her late husband tried to hit on her. I simply offered her my protection for the rest of the night. So I got the night clerk to find us two chairs and we sat and talked throughout the night. In the morning we had breakfast exchanged addresses, shook hands and parted, she for home me for the airport and Canada. We wrote to each other, found love and married - all over a handshake. She later told me in a letter that she could not get over the fact that I protected her all that night and did not ask anything in return, that had never been her experience up until that night. That was simply the way I was raised, but I find few men like that these days. So I am just an old fashioned individual.

I fell for my wife the first time I saw her. After we were together there were guys I knew and former boy friends that wanted to break us up and date her. I didn't let that shape me in a negative way but it's my nature to let things roll off my back. 6 months later we were married by a judge with a secretary who was typing the whole time as a witness. Both of us non-believers and married 40 years with 3 great kids that had no problem without religion. One even had one of his christain friends ask how he could be do moral and not religious. There's a problem lot's of religious people have is they think they have the moral high ground just because of a belief they have that some one else doesn't hold. Anyway. Sounds like we both found happiness and that's a great thing. Many happy years to you and your wife sir.

[Oerets]

My experiences with religion is a simple one. It has little effect on a strong willed persons ability to do the right or wrong thing. Just the easily swayed.

So will always be around in one shape or another to control the masses. Even the Nazis came up with a mythology to confuse and use.



Barney

[piece-itpete]

Hello sanford, nice to meet you.

Originally Posted by sanford12

What's up bobabode? Thanks. Been meaning to get over here for sometime. Much easier to have a civilized discussion about hot topics here. Face to face people tend to get out of hand. Typing helps slows things down and get your thoughts in line.

Wait a while

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Oerets

My experiences with religion is a simple one. It has little effect on a strong willed persons ability to do the right or wrong thing. Just the easily swayed.

So will always be around in one shape or another to control the masses. Even the Nazis came up with a mythology to confuse and use.



Barney

Exactly. I've met committed Atheists in strong, long term relationships and so-called church-going "Christians" who can't keep their pants up. I've know and still know quite a few people who are deeply religious and it's a good thing.......because every time they "fall out of grace", they fall hard. Drugs, sex, crime, you name it........Without the threat of eternal damnation and the promise of heavenly reward, these morons simply lose control of themselves.

IMO, religion is only good if you need it and it isn't being used to brainwash you into doing horrible things. I'm taking a wild guess that most people don't really need it for much. Unless it's their way of attributing the good and bad things in their lives to a "higher power".

I personally believe;

1). Shit happens. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but I don't believe for a second that it's part of any divine or sinister "plan". And whatever doesn't just happen, is caused either by good people, assholes or the wind, water, heat or gravity.

2). If there is a God, he obviously doesn't care. Look at what good waiting for "Gods" rescue did to save millions of people buried in mass graves by tyrants around the world or all of those praying for salvation during natural catastrophes.......... None, Zip, Zero, Zilch, Nada. Dead as a door nail, many suffering horribly in the process.

3). Smart people rarely do stupid things, not because some holy book told them not to, but because doing stupid things is stupid.

But, that's just my viewpoint.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Most who think the Bible is either anti-intellectual and or a good tool for controlling people haven't read it (I strongly rec Jesus's conversations with Pilate for politically-minded people particularly). There is a reason the renaissance followed/partnered with the printing press, classical works along with the ubiquitous and no need for name 'Book': Bible.

As the last century has shown, whenever you toss out right and wrong and go for 'situational ethics' people tend to die in large numbers.

Pete

[sanford12]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Hello sanford, nice to meet you.



Wait a while

Pete

Hi Pete.
It can always get ugly, There's a lot of people here from Audio Karma and they're a good bunch and I've had some differences over there. It happens.
Deep breath. Exhale. Relax.

[piece-itpete]

Everyone, get sanford!!



Pete