Alas, Kiev.

[BigElCat]

Originally Posted by nailer

Pushing the Red Army back over the 8/39 border would have been the goal and we'd have gotten our collective asses kicked.

No.

It would have been the USA all the way. Montgomery and his boys could have gone home. The entire Soviet war machine was there; George could have dismantled it on the way back to the border.

Truman could have brought a couple of B-29s out of Burma, dropped 'Beulah Ballbreaker' on Moscow, 'Big Helga' on some industrial target.

Skipped the Cold War altogether.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by Oerets

To stop evil from spreading. To help a country that made a choice (1994) to give up it's nukes willingly with assurances they would be protected. IIRC!

Some view this fairly modern construct as a country not worthy of their blood.

1) very corrupt.
2) held hostage by right-wing militias.
3) has serious divisions often related to language and area.
4) that it is a 5 billion dollar project gone awry despite the warning of Henry Kissinger.

[BigElCat]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Some view this fairly modern construct as a country not worthy of their blood.

1) very corrupt.
2) held hostage by right-wing militias.
3) has serious divisions often related to language and area.
4) that it is a 5 billion dollar project gone awry despite the warning of Henry Kissinger.

I thought you were talking about the USA, until I got to number 4.

You're saying Henry Kissinger gave a warning about not giving aid to the Ukraine ?

What year was that ?

[BigElCat]

Originally Posted by Oerets

To stop evil from spreading. To help a country that made a choice (1994) to give up it's nukes willingly with assurances they would be protected. IIRC!

I don't think they had much of a choice when Russia took the ICBMs back. They had no standing military of their own. No control of the nuclear program.

[Oerets]

""December 21, the leaders of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine formally dissolved the Soviet Union and formed the Commonwealth of Independent States""

"" these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States. In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons""


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...ns_and_Ukraine


Also to be considered is how Ukraine handled itself with the Trump administrations efforts to extort, coerce untruths about Biden........

[BigElCat]

Originally Posted by Oerets

""December 21, the leaders of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine formally dissolved the Soviet Union and formed the Commonwealth of Independent States""

"" these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States. In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons""


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...ns_and_Ukraine


Also to be considered is how Ukraine handled itself with the Trump administrations efforts to extort, coerce untruths about Biden........

From the article, like I said;

"The deterrent value of the nuclear weapons in Ukraine was also questionable, as Ukraine would have had to spend 12 to 18 months to establish full operational control over the nuclear arsenal left by the Russians. The ICBMs also had a range of 5,000–10,000 km (initially targeting the United States), which meant that they could only have been re-targeted to hit Russia's far east. The air-launched cruise missiles (ALCMs) left by the Russians had been disabled by the Russians during the collapse of the Soviet Union, but even if they had been reconfigured and made to work by the Ukrainians, it is unlikely that they would have had a deterrent effect. Had Ukraine decided to establish full operational control of the nuclear weapons, it would have faced sanctions by the West and perhaps even a withdrawal of diplomatic recognition by the United States and other NATO allies. Ukraine would also likely have faced retaliatory action by Russia. Ukraine would also have struggled with replacing the nuclear weapons once their service life expired, as Ukraine did not have a nuclear weapons program"

I was wrong that the weapons went back to Russia, apparently they were destroyed because they were useless to Ukraine. Still, they had virtually no choice.

[Oerets]

I doubt there are many who can honestly say what would the effect on history be if Ukraine had kept the nukes. The facts speak for themselves, no nukes in Ukraine. The situation would be much different right now if they still had them. Doubt very seriously Putin would be so brave with them operational.

Ukraine has moved away from the east towards the west in sympathies. That is a major reason for Putin's aggressive behavior.

[BigElCat]

Originally Posted by Oerets

I doubt there are many who can honestly say what would the effect on history be if Ukraine had kept the nukes. The facts speak for themselves, no nukes in Ukraine. The situation would be much different right now if they still had them. Doubt very seriously Putin would be so brave with them operational.

Ukraine has moved away from the east towards the west in sympathies. That is a major reason for Putin's aggressive behavior.

Indeed.

The ICBMs would not have been any kind of a deterrent for Russia, the air drop ones would have been, if the Ukraine had the resources to hack in and recode them. You wouldn't want to mess around recoding the first one on your home soil.

They would of had to embark on a top secret mission to a remote location, used a 300 mile long cable to start experimenting. They had no nuclear program of their own, just a few unlucky shop maintenance guys.



It would have been trial and error, reverse engineering. Once they figured it out, reprograming the rest would have been easy.

[Oerets]

Originally Posted by BigElCat

Indeed.

The ICBMs would not have been any kind of a deterrent for Russia, the air drop ones would have been, if the Ukraine had the resources to hack in and recode them. You wouldn't want to mess around recoding the first one on your home soil.

They would of had to embark on a top secret mission to a remote location, used a 300 mile long cable to start experimenting. They had no nuclear program of their own, just a few unlucky shop maintenance guys.



It would have been trial and error, reverse engineering. Once they figured it out, reprograming the rest would have been easy.

Necessity is the Mother of invention. Look no further then Iran or North Korea as examples. Thinking of the capabilities and incentives of Ukraine who knows where they could of gone.

[BigElCat]

Originally Posted by BigElCat

You're saying Henry Kissinger gave a warning about not giving aid to the Ukraine ?

What year was that ?

Found the answer to my question; it was in 2014.

I do believe Kissinger was correct; the billions donated to the Ukrainian armed forces is a misallocation of resources.

What does the USA get for $5 Billion ? Half a billion dollars worth of damage to the Russian armed forces ? i guess we're hoping for a deterrence effect.

Doesn't seem right to me. Like when Trump sent 62 cruise missiles into Syria at $1 million a pop. Did about $50,000 worth of damage to an airfield. I guess it was just suppose to scare the enemies, including Russia.

Haven't heard anything about the war in Syria lately, except some strategic strikes by Israel.