Greece - here come the lefties

[Dondilion]

I would like to mention also re Georgia the issue of NATO and the role of ethnicity. And the Russians were not the ones who set the template for
separation in post soviet times.

BTW Boreas, thanks for the clarity.

As to the Germans, they are something: they fed profligacy and now shout economic rectitude.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Yeah, but without the Maidan coup, there would have been no separatist movement for Russia to support as happened with Abkhazia and South Ossetia, so no pretext for intervention.

The pressure upon Yanukovych by Putin to bail on his plans for developing closer ties with Europe (against the wishes of a majority of Ukrainians) was itself an intervention by Russia. Putin is a kleptocratic, deceitful weasel, plain and simple.

[Dondilion]

The EU wanted Ukraine to give up its Russian economic connection cheaply.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The pressure upon Yanukovych by Putin to bail on his plans for developing closer ties with Europe (against the wishes of a majority of Ukrainians) was itself an intervention by Russia. Putin is a kleptocratic, deceitful weasel, plain and simple.

The clear goal of the US and the EU was to fold Ukraine in to the eurozone and also NATO. This was a clear and deliberate provocation and another violation of the entente between the US and Russia regarding NATO expansion. There's a lot not to like about Putin but, in this case, I think he has been pretty restrained.

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

The clear goal of the US and the EU was to fold Ukraine in to the eurozone and also NATO. This was a clear and deliberate provocation and another violation of the entente between the US and Russia regarding NATO expansion. There's a lot not to like about Putin but, in this case, I think he has been pretty restrained.

John

I suppose one could view it as a provocation if a sovereign Ukraine viewed its future rosier if it adopted economic policies and alliances more like those in Poland rather than Belarus. If I lived in Kiev, I sure as hell know where I'd prefer to hitch my wagon.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I suppose one could view it as a provocation if a sovereign Ukraine viewed its future rosier if it adopted economic policies and alliances more like those in Poland rather than Belarus. If I lived in Kiev, I sure as hell know where I'd prefer to hitch my wagon.

So, ya got nuthin'?

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

So, ya got nuthin'?

John

I'm simply not a Putin fanboy and refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt on anything.

[nailer]

As a Ukrainian old fart living in Kiev I wouldn't trust Moscow and I'd trust Berlin even less. Germany is still Germany. Germans still want their place in the Sun.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by nailer

As a Ukrainian old fart living in Kiev I wouldn't trust Moscow and I'd trust Berlin even less. Germany is still Germany. Germans still want their place in the Sun.

Hmmm...any territorial aspirations re Poland rearing their hoary head?

[nailer]

Sung to the tune of "Give Ireland Back to the Irish."

Give Danzig back to the Prussians
Let Danzig be Prussian again

Seriously though, as a 60 year old Pole living in Gdańsk Berlin might be a vacation destination for me. Russians are wolves.