Social Security

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Boreas

You don't "pay in" to Food Stamps and Medicaid. You can avail yourselves of these entitlements even if you've never earned enough to pay income tax. Also, you have to apply for these and must demonstrate a need and you can be rejected (means test). You get it if you need it. You don't if you don't.

With Social Security and Medicare, you do pay in and, as a result, you automatically receive the benefits. Yes, you have to apply but that's mostly because you have a certain amount of discretion as to when your benefit will start.

so... the pennies given for food stamps and the 1800's medicine available through Medicaid is paid for with money that falls from the trees?

John, I get your point, I understand the differences, I disagree that it's worth making a distinction. We disagree. No big deal.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

My main irritation with Social Security is that both parties have continued the lie that SS taxes create a SS fund when they never have. But Reagan is the biggest offender in that he pushed through the largest SS tax increase with the lying promise that the money would make the program secure. What the money did, of course, was help with the huge deficit he had going.

Both parties also lie all the time and accuse the other of 'raiding' the trust fund. There has never, from the first day of the program on, been a real trust fund to raid. There's a more technical question, of course, as to whether a government with a permanent debt and a virtually-permanent deficit can or should in any way have funds of savings....

This is correct. FICA is nothing but general revenue which is why I reject John's argument.

Good post.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by noonereal

This is correct. FICA is nothing but general revenue which is why I reject John's argument.

Good post.

No, they are not "general revenue" although the right wingers would like you to believe that.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v75n1/v75n1p1.html

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

No, they are not "general revenue" although the right wingers would like you to believe that.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v75n1/v75n1p1.html

My point was, I though it clear if you followed the thread, that it was used as general revenue by our esteemed leaders.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by noonereal

My point was, I though it clear if you followed the thread, that it was used as general revenue by our esteemed leaders.

I don't really understand the accounting tricks that the government uses, but it was my understanding that these excess funds were used to purchase government bonds that are now earning interest. So to me that says there are real assets that are held by the trust fund. Now I suppose the actual dollars that were used to buy those bonds were spent by the government as part of the general revenue fund, but still, it seems to me the government has the same obligation to pay back that money when those bonds are redeemed, just like they would if you or I purchased a government bond.

Now I'm sure the Oligarchs don't want the government to be obliged to pay them back because that will mean that the government will have to raise that money somehow, most likely by raising their taxes. Well fuck them.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by noonereal

He did a lot of little stuff to. Like he stopped disability payments for child of the disabled at age 18 when previous they were extended till the child was out of college if they attended.

Yeah, kids with disabled parents do not have a right to college. I guess that was his thought.

Orphans got no business going to college either.

Both my parents were dead by the time I was 20 and I got $67 bucks a month survivors benefits until I was 22 as long as I was in college. That was back in the pre-Reagan days (1967-69.)

[nailer]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

I don't really understand the accounting tricks that the government uses, but it was my understanding that these excess funds were used to purchase government bonds that are now earning interest. So to me that says there are real assets that are held by the trust fund. Now I suppose the actual dollars that were used to buy those bonds were spent by the government as part of the general revenue fund, but still, it seems to me the government has the same obligation to pay back that money when those bonds are redeemed, just like they would if you or I purchased a government bond.

Now I'm sure the Oligarchs don't want the government to be obliged to pay them back because that will mean that the government will have to raise that money somehow, most likely by raising their taxes. Well fuck them.

Who's going to redeem them? Certainly not the Congress of our two ossified parties.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

I don't really understand the accounting tricks that the government uses, but it was my understanding that these excess funds were used to purchase government bonds that are now earning interest. So to me that says there are real assets that are held by the trust fund. Now I suppose the actual dollars that were used to buy those bonds were spent by the government as part of the general revenue fund, but still, it seems to me the government has the same obligation to pay back that money when those bonds are redeemed, just like they would if you or I purchased a government bond.

Now I'm sure the Oligarchs don't want the government to be obliged to pay them back because that will mean that the government will have to raise that money somehow, most likely by raising their taxes. Well fuck them.

Obligated yes, funded no. To redeem the bonds the government will have to use tax funds available at that time, or borrow.

[Rajoo]

I happen to recall Al Gore's campaign promise, put the SS trust funds in a lock box. Guess this never happened.

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Obligated yes, funded no. To redeem the bonds the government will have to use tax funds available at that time, or borrow.

Isn't that the same thing as when anyone buys a US Government bond?

Basically what the Republicans are saying is that they want to United States Government to renege on paying on the bonds they issued. It seems like that would put the US into Third World Banana Republic status.