God in the Classroom?

[BlueStreak]

The following was my final post in a thread regarding Public Education on another forum site. I was responding to a man who blamed evertying from rudeness to the decline in church attendence to cheese mold on the public education system.

"The teachers benefits packages don't have a damn thing to do with the kids. That's just the deal they get for doing the job. Religion has no place in a public school. Teaching a child religion, discipline and accountablitiy is supposed to be the PARENTS job. Which brings me to the real root of the problem.....parents who expect the school to "raise" their kids for them. Want you kid to grow up Christian? Fine, take him to church, read the Bible at home. It has NO PLACE in the public schools. The school should NOT be expected to take your undisciplined, spoiled little heathen and teach them manors and etiquette....That's YOUR JOB."

Is it just me, or am I hearing rightwingers blame things on the government that (should) have NOTHING to do with it? The government is to blame because your kid is foul mouthed, lazy and undisciplined? Really? Where are his parents in all of this? What is he learning at home? Maybe he got it from.....YOU?

Maybe I should butt out, because being childless, I have no dogs in this fight.
But, I can't help it, because some of the things I'm hearing these days, just throw me for a loop.

"My kid does nothing but sit in his room, eating Cheezie Curls, playing video games and smoking up all my dope! The damn teachers union is ruining his future!"

Regards,
Dave

[finnbow]

I agree that parents have as much or more to do with childrens' success as any school. OTOH, in inner-city or other impoverished areas where parent(s) have no formal education, no meaningful work experience, etc., positive parental influences don't exist and the schools are forced to act in loco parentis if we, as a society, expect these kids to grow up to be successful/productive.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I agree that parents have as much or more to do with childrens' success as any school. OTOH, in inner-city or other impoverished areas where parent(s) have no formal education, no meaningful work experience, etc., positive parental influences don't exist and the schools are forced to act in loco parentis if we, as a society, expect these kids to grow up to be successful/productive.

I guess I can see that, to a degree. But, this guy is no poor innercity parent. And I might add that I don't understand how poverty is used to justify, or explain poor parenting. My father was raised in a desperately poor family and he had an awesome work ethic.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

I guess I can see that, to a degree. But, this guy is no poor innercity parent. And I might add that I don't understand how poverty is used to justify, or explain poor parenting. My father was raised in a desperately poor family and he had an awesome work ethic.

I think there are ethnic, cultural and economic reasons why some parents are unable or unwilling to instill a work ethic or a need for education in their offspring. The question is whether this results in a need for the state to step in in the hope of breaking this cycle in certain communities.

In suburban middle and upper class America, I have zero sympathy for parents who fail to instill these values. OTOH, I grudgingly accept that there probably is a societal benefit to the schools acting in loco parentis in areas where ethnic, cultural and economic factors have conspired to leave kids without any hope of success without some sort of intervention. I'm not sure how you break the prevailing dysfunctional cycle in these areas otherwise. Admittedly, however, it sometimes seems like throwing money at an intractable problem.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I think there are ethnic, cultural and economic reasons why some parents are unable or unwilling to instill a work ethic or a need for education in their offspring. The question is whether this results in a need for the state to step in in the hope of breaking this cycle in certain communities.

In suburban middle and upper class America, I have zero sympathy for parents who fail to instill these values. OTOH, I grudgingly accept that there probably is a societal benefit to the schools acting in loco parentis in areas where ethnic, cultural and economic factors have conspired to leave kids without any hope of success without some sort of intervention. I'm not sure how you break the prevailing dysfunctional cycle in these areas otherwise. Admittedly, however, it sometimes seems like throwing money at an intractable problem.

I'll buy that. In cases where there seems to be a familial tradition of apathy towards education and honest work, external influence becomes necessary to "break the cycle" as you put it. And, a teacher who cares and possesses the ability to inspire and motivate can be just the ticket.

Regards,
Dave

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I agree that parents have as much or more to do with childrens' success as any school. OTOH, in inner-city or other impoverished areas where parent(s) have no formal education, no meaningful work experience, etc., positive parental influences don't exist and the schools are forced to act in loco parentis if we, as a society, expect these kids to grow up to be successful/productive.

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc.

However, I think about my parents growing up during a depression, when bread and milk sandwiches were on the menu for dinner - if they could afford dinner. There was no TV, no money to keep lights on at night so they lit candles, kids finding whatever they could to play with because there was no Xbox, etc. Kids were taught to be grateful for the little that they had, any small success was celebrated, and there was much more a sense of community than there is today, supported by folks actually getting together frequently with their neighbors, whether formally or informally just sitting on the porch in the evening talking while the kids played in the yard together.

We now have a society where expectations are high and entitlement is the currency. There is no sense of gratitude and achievement is disparaged. Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home. I've heard more times than I care to count about folks who can't wait to get to work so that they can get away from the kids. Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside.

And then we wonder why kids have no respect for themselves or others?

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc....

I fully understand your frustration. As someone who lives in a county with close to the best schools in the nation (MoCo, MD) adjacent to several jurisdictions with close to the worst (DC and PGCo, MD), it's abundantly clear to me that throwing money at the schools doesn't seem to help and that parental involvement is key.

I don't claim to have the answer to this (nor does anyone else, given the evidence at hand). However, something needs to be done to break the cycle and educational success is the key. How to get there from here isn't. Ranting to 16 year old unwed mothers about their lack of parenting skills probably isn't the answer though.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Ranting to 16 year old unwed mothers about their lack of parenting skills probably isn't the answer though.

I was assuming a dearth of 16 year old unwed mothers on this forum made it a safe place to rant.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by whell

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc.

However, I think about my parents growing up during a depression, when bread and milk sandwiches were on the menu for dinner - if they could afford dinner. There was no TV, no money to keep lights on at night so they lit candles, kids finding whatever they could to play with because there was no Xbox, etc. Kids were taught to be grateful for the little that they had, any small success was celebrated, and there was much more a sense of community than there is today, supported by folks actually getting together frequently with their neighbors, whether formally or informally just sitting on the porch in the evening talking while the kids played in the yard together.

We now have a society where expectations are high and entitlement is the currency. There is no sense of gratitude and achievement is disparaged. Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home. I've heard more times than I care to count about folks who can't wait to get to work so that they can get away from the kids. Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside.

And then we wonder why kids have no respect for themselves or others?

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Interesting rant. Interesting, because it is confusing.

"....acheivement is disparaged."---It is? How? We THROW money at the successful in this country. Even when they fail and drag the global economy down with them. Even our sports figures and entetainers are wealthier than some COUNTRIES are. Because no matter how wealthy they become, it's never enough and we expect them to put some of it back into society?

"Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home."

I've never met this person. Must be a management thing.
'Cuz, I know they certainly expect the rest of us to care more about the job than we do our families.

"Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside."

This I can agree with. Isolation is never good. It leads one to be apathetic towards the condition of the world around them and causes them to persue ambitions that are entirely selfish, narrow and single-minded, with no regard as to how their actions screw other people. In otherwords, they become Gordon Gekko.

Regards,
Dave

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by whell

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc.

However, I think about my parents growing up during a depression, when bread and milk sandwiches were on the menu for dinner - if they could afford dinner. There was no TV, no money to keep lights on at night so they lit candles, kids finding whatever they could to play with because there was no Xbox, etc. Kids were taught to be grateful for the little that they had, any small success was celebrated, and there was much more a sense of community than there is today, supported by folks actually getting together frequently with their neighbors, whether formally or informally just sitting on the porch in the evening talking while the kids played in the yard together.

We now have a society where expectations are high and entitlement is the currency. There is no sense of gratitude and achievement is disparaged. Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home. I've heard more times than I care to count about folks who can't wait to get to work so that they can get away from the kids. Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside.

And then we wonder why kids have no respect for themselves or others?

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

This is truly pathological. Everything you assert about the Depression is romanticized treacle and everything you say about the present is cynical carping.

Nuff sed.

John