ObamaCare and Bankruptcy

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Nope, that's just amplifying the cost issues that we have now. In other words, its like throwing gasoline on the fire.

Yet, the GOP has no ideas whatsoever to fix this dynamic. Instead, they try to peddle the fiction that selling health care is the same as selling widgets or automobiles and that a conventional supply & demand relationship exists in health care.

A traditional supply & demand relationship can only exist when a customer is working with complete information as to relative quality, effectiveness, availability and price. A person who gets in a car wreck, has a kidney stone or suffers a heart attack or stroke isn't able to evaluate the relative cost and efficacy of his health care options or the cost/benefit relationship of the various treatments/drugs offered to treat his condition (even if complete cost and quality information was available, which it isn't).

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Yet, the GOP has no ideas whatsoever to fix this dynamic. Instead, they try to peddle the fiction that selling health care is the same as selling widgets or automobiles and that a conventional supply & demand relationship exists in health care.

A traditional supply & demand relationship can only exist when a customer is working with complete information as to relative quality, effectiveness, availability and price. A person who gets in a car wreck, has a kidney stone or suffers a heart attack or stroke isn't able to evaluate the relative cost and efficacy of his health care options or the cost/benefit relationship of the various treatments/drugs offered to treat his condition (even if complete cost and quality information was available, which it isn't).

Yet, you're wrong again Finn. There are solutions out there, and they've been around a while. The problem is that the left and the AMA hate them, and them. You spout the lefty party line every time, for example, the topic of Health Savings Accounts/High Deductible Health plans are brought up. But that is certainly one element of the fix that needs to be implemented.

The conventional supply and demand relationship in health care doesn't exist when the consumer is removed from the equation. You cite examples of emergency medical treatment, but the decisions that are made between a doctor and a patient in an office setting occur far more frequently and account for significant costs in Medicaid, Medicare and private health insurance plans.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Yet, you're wrong again Finn. There are solutions out there, and they've been around a while. The problem is that the left and the AMA hate them, and them. You spout the lefty party line every time, for example, the topic of Health Savings Accounts/High Deductible Health plans are brought up. But that is certainly one element of the fix that needs to be implemented.

Health Savings Accounts do nothing to help the poor who cannot afford them to begin with. They only help those with high enough marginal income tax rates and disposal income to take advantage of them. Basically, it is yet another scheme to reduce taxes of those with higher incomes at the expense of the poor at a time when income disparities continue to get larger.

The conventional supply and demand relationship in health care doesn't exist when the consumer is removed from the equation. You cite examples of emergency medical treatment, but the decisions that are made between a doctor and a patient in an office setting occur far more frequently and account for significant costs in Medicaid, Medicare and private health insurance plans.

Correction - The conventional supply and demand relationship in health care cannot exist without an informed consumer. Unless all Americans get medical degrees and have complete cost information in advance to evaluate their options as to provider and therapies, a conventional supply and demand relationship cannot exist. Moreover, health care has fairly inelastic demand (a patient will pay whatever it takes to save their own life or health).

In summary, you seem to have bought into the conservative fiction that health care can be sold like widgets. It can't. Consider for a moment that virtually all first world industrial democracies offer comprehensive health care at about half the cost of ours. Without exception, this isn't achieved by unleashing free market choices in the health care sectors of these countries.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Health Savings Accounts do nothing to help the poor who cannot afford them to begin with. They only help those with high enough marginal income tax rates and disposal income to take advantage of them. Basically, it is yet another scheme to reduce taxes of those with higher incomes at the expense of the poor at a time when income disparities continue to get larger.

There are already solutions available for the "poor". The rest of your post is BS Dem talking points. As I've already pointed out, HSA/HDHP plan membership is expanding and enrollees in these plans have pretty high satisfaction with these plans. Enrollment is NOT limited to high income folks. Our family is a good example. We've got a couple of kids who frequently access the health care system, and we have had a lot of success with the plan / account. So, put your talking points aside and try taking a look around.

Originally Posted by finnbow

Correction - The conventional supply and demand relationship in health care cannot exist without an informed consumer. Unless all Americans get medical degrees and have complete cost information in advance to evaluate their options as to provider and therapies, a conventional supply and demand relationship cannot exist. Moreover, health care has fairly inelastic demand (a patient will pay whatever it takes to save their own life or health).

Yet its the health insurers, who the left loves to hate, that has taken the lead in making benchmark cost and quality information available to consumers. They've made this info available so individuals can make informed decisions about medical care. Here's one example that's easy for folks without medical degrees to understand, and there are plenty of similar example out there.

https://www.uhc.com/individual-and-f...cost-estimator

Originally Posted by finnbow

In summary, you seem to have bought into the conservative fiction that health care can be sold like widgets. It can't. Consider for a moment that virtually all first world industrial democracies offer comprehensive health care at about half the cost of ours. Without exception, this isn't achieved by unleashing free market choices in the health care sectors of these countries.

In summary, you seem to have bought into the Dem talking points, but have no desire to look beyond those talking points to see whether they are fact or fiction. You then suggest that anyone who disagrees with you traffic in "fiction". I hope you enjoy your "ignorance is bliss" approach to this topic.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

A traditional supply & demand relationship can only exist when a customer is working with complete information as to relative quality, effectiveness, availability and price. A person who gets in a car wreck, has a kidney stone or suffers a heart attack or stroke isn't able to evaluate the relative cost and efficacy of his health care options or the cost/benefit relationship of the various treatments/drugs offered to treat his condition (even if complete cost and quality information was available, which it isn't).

Yeah, its been a few days and I'm still waiting for any kind of fact - based responses. Not going to hold my breath.

I did come across a little nugget that I saw a few months back, and thought I'd post it here, since it has bearing on the discussion. As Finn did above, start talking about consumerism in health care purchases, Health Savings Accounts, etc., and folks on the left will reliably start talking about emergency services as an example of why consumerism doesn't work.

Turns out that's not a bad argument, but only as it relates to somewhere between 2% and 10% (depending on what study you want to look at) of health care spending annually. That leaves - conservatively - 90% of health care costs that might be better managed with the consumer making informed decisions about their health care spending.

Another lefty red herring removed from the pond.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Yeah, its been a few days and I'm still waiting for any kind of fact - based responses. Not going to hold my breath.

I did come across a little nugget that I saw a few months back, and thought I'd post it here, since it has bearing on the discussion. As Finn did above, start talking about consumerism in health care purchases, Health Savings Accounts, etc., and folks on the left will reliably start talking about emergency services as an example of why consumerism doesn't work.

Turns out that's not a bad argument, but only as it relates to somewhere between 2% and 10% (depending on what study you want to look at) of health care spending annually. That leaves - conservatively - 90% of health care costs that might be better managed with the consumer making informed decisions about their health care spending.

Another lefty red herring removed from the pond.

You're a manipulated fool, Whell, with far less knowledge, understanding and insight into the economics of health care than you purport to have. Your post infers that 90-98% of medical patients purchase health care just like they purchase a TV or a car (by thoroughly researching relative cost and quality of their options). Health care is a good where the average consumer does not have the ability to gauge the relative quality of what is being purchased (doctor, medical tests, pharmaceuticals, hospitals, etc.). Without this knowledge, a conventional supply & demand relationship cannot exist.

As for a HSA, I had one for a number of years before I retired. It accomplished nothing in terms of helping me sort out health care options, but it did save me some taxes. Low earners, however, don't share the income tax advantages of an HSA (it doesn't reduce income tax for those who pay little or no income tax while providing greater benefits to those in higher tax brackets).

If you actually seek a better understanding the economics of health care, I recommend checking out this link which studies the tenuous supply and demand relationship in health care.

https://2012books.lardbucket.org/boo...health-ca.html

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

You're a manipulated fool, Whell, with far less knowledge, understanding and insight into the economics of health care than you purport to have. Your post infers that 90-98% of medical patients purchase health care just like they purchase a TV or a car (by thoroughly researching relative cost and quality of their options).

No, I'm not saying that. Apparently, you just can't grasp basic concepts, or possibly are unable to read with comprehension. I'm saying that one of the primary reasons for healthcare inflation over the past several decades is that there is no true consumerism in most individual healthcare spending. I'm saying that this SHOULD happen more than it does. I'm saying that the vast majority of healthcare spending - which is non-emergency medical treatment - could find that the cost curve would bend in the consumer's favor if more individuals were involved with the cost - side of the purchase more than they are today.

Originally Posted by finnbow

As for a HSA, I had one for a number of years before I retired. It accomplished nothing in terms of helping me sort out health care options, but it did save me some taxes. Low earners, however, don't share the income tax advantages of an HSA (it doesn't reduce income tax for those who pay little or no income tax while providing greater benefits to those in higher tax brackets).

Well, your summary above ignores about 60+ percent of the advantages of participating in an HSA/HDHP plan...and may demonstrate that basic math is lost on you.

First, to enroll in an HSA plan and fund it, the insured must also have enrolled in a high deductible health plan (HDHP). These plans are often less costly - sometimes significantly less costly - than more traditional health plans. Savvy individuals often take the savings in premium and fund their HSA's with it. As I've often suggested to folks: how do you want to spend your money? Give it to the insurance carrier, or keep it and fund your HSA with it?

Second, assuming that both your HSA contributions and your premium deductions were deducted from your paycheck on a pre-tax basis, I'll assume that the reduction in premium deductions (versus a traditional health plan) offset at least in part the tax savings from your HSA, unless you were putting 100% or more of the savings into your HSA.

Third, unlike premiums, and unlike Flexible Spending Accounts, any funds that are in your HSA are yours to spend (or save) however you wish. While you can't put any new money into your HSA after you enroll in Medicare, you can use any existing HSA funds to pay Medicare part B or part D premiums. Since the funds paying those premiums are made with pre-tax earnings, the net effect is like paying those premiums at a discount.

Originally Posted by finnbow

If you actually seek a better understanding the economics of health care, I recommend checking out this link which studies the tenuous supply and demand relationship in health care.

https://2012books.lardbucket.org/boo...health-ca.html

Yeah, I'm fine, but I think you might need brush up on your math skills.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

No, I'm not saying that. Apparently, you just can't grasp basic concepts, or possibly are unable to read with comprehension. I'm saying that one of the primary reasons for healthcare inflation over the past several decades is that there is no true consumerism in most individual healthcare spending. I'm saying that this SHOULD happen more than it does. I'm saying that the vast majority of healthcare spending - which is non-emergency medical treatment - could find that the cost curve would bend in the consumer's favor if more individuals were involved with the cost - side of the purchase more than they are today.

I guess you missed the fundamental point that conventional market forces don't, haven't and can't work in health care delivery.

Yeah, I'm fine, but I think you might need brush up on your math skills.

With two engineering degrees, an MBA and having tutored calculus and differential equations for several years to supplement income in college, my math skills are just fine, thank you.

[whell]

[QUOTE=finnbow;353438]I guess you missed the fundamental point that conventional market forces don't, haven't and can't work in health care delivery.

We'll need to disagree on this point. Your stating an opinion and while you're entitled to that opinion, there are plenty of opinions and studies that suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by finnbow

With two engineering degrees, an MBA and having tutored calculus and differential equations for several years to supplement income in college, my math skills are just fine, thank you.

Uh huh.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

We'll need to disagree on this point. Your stating an opinion and while you're entitled to that opinion, there are plenty of opinions and studies that suggest otherwise.

It is not an opinion that nearly all consumers of health care have no ability to ascertain the relative quality, cost, and efficacy of all potential care givers and therapies for each and every health condition they may encounter. Without this ability, a conventional supply/demand relationship cannot exist.