I Have a Question ...

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

One does not need to get so esoteric...a woman's wonder at the kicking inside her is good enough.

Most abortions come way before any kicking possible. There probably in general is not much kicking in the few later ones either, since those generally involve highly-medically-compromised fetuses.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Most abortions come way before any kicking possible. There probably in general is not much kicking in the few later ones either, since those generally involve highly-medically-compromised fetuses.

Kicking here should read movement. Mothers always have a wondrous feeling about such.

[donquixote99]

Quickening is defined as the first movements of the fetus felt in utero. It occurs from the eighteenth to the twentieth week of pregnancy.

https://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=48890

The majority of abortions in 2019 took place early in gestation: 92.7% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation....

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductiveheal...s/abortion.htm

Data.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Power and money are the motives, certainly. You can leave 'over women' out of it, only a subset of evangelical and republican leaders are actually misogynistic. Their ability to have a social wedge issue that never goes away has been golden. They're going to miss it when when they don't have it any more, and the left does.

That Repubs have capitalized on the issue is definitely true. However couching the argument in purely political partisan terms will miss the strong feelings of those who view the issue without political anchorages.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

https://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=48890

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductiveheal...s/abortion.htm

Data.

Still relevant to the unborn.

[barbara]

I think "feeling the baby kick" or using "movement" as criteria for abortion is not a very accurate measurement. I carried twins and didn't feel them kick or move until I was into my fifth month.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

Still relevant to the unborn.

Who you will continue to champion. Feelings trump data. But the truth is feelings vary all over the place. If your circumstances are adverse you can feel only pain at being kicked. Why are your feelings the most important feelings, over those of the person actually pregnant? Why do you get to rule her?

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Who you will continue to champion. Feelings trump data. But the truth is feelings vary all over the place. If your circumstances are adverse you can feel only pain at being kicked. Why are your feelings the most important feelings, over those of the person actually pregnant? Why do you get to rule her?

She is not in a vacuum. There is societal conscience.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

She is not in a vacuum. There is societal conscience.

You hit on the nexus of the question. Individual rights, in this case the mother's right to control her own person, versus society's interest in the unborn 'person.'

You have picked an 'unarguable' value position, that you define as right and moral. There are rational ways to say 'this may work out better sometimes' or 'that may work out better sometimes.' But such arguments will not avail for or against a moral conviction. Just do not imagine that you have therefore 'proved' your position. Such positions cannot be shown to be true or false on rational grounds.

I come down with individual rights here; I find them to be more salient than an abstract 'societal conscience,' which can be whatever a majority in the legislature, backed up by the Supreme Court, wants it to be. But I do not imagine my position to be any more provable true or false than yours.

Questions like this are settled by raw political power, or by nothing.

[Oerets]

There would be better arguments against abortions, if the support for and acceptance of the unwanted births were a fact of life. Sadly they are not.

Right now without universal healthcare, readily available affordable daycare and other supports for a single parent. Getting time off without being penalized. The stigmas attached and the many other reason people choose to have the abortions.

Then the way the poor and disadvantaged are sidelined today. The rise in the homeless who work but are still to poor. What are they to do when faced with a unwanted or troubled pregnancy? The rich have shown their unwillingness to pay more in taxes for their support. Forcing mothers back to work, cutting benefits....

Again it is easy for people who have resources or can never get pregnant to have their opinions on abortions. I'm a realist and accept the fact abortions will always be a fact. So we must deal with it in a humane way for all.