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  #11  
Old 12-22-2015, 10:20 AM
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merrylander merrylander is offline
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
So, you're comparing West Bank settlers to Hamas?
Both Palestine and Israel are man made creations, Palestine did not exist prior to 1920, Hell we could go all the way back to the Diaspora to determine who rightfully owns the land, we as North Americans are really in no position to pass judgement.

I suspect that at the root of much of the criticism of Israel and the Jews is based on their finally saying - Enough! As long as they docilely accepted persecution everything was fine. But when the Warsaw Ghetto rose up against the Nazis it hit the fan. Suddenly we had a generation that would not simply roll over.

And let's face it antisemitism is a long way from dead. That South African Judge who wrote the report unilaterally condemning Israel of war crimes had to withdraw or revise it. (I would go find the link but if I try VBulletin erases what I have typed)

The middle east is a f**king mess and my British cousins and the French can accept a lot of the blame.
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  #12  
Old 12-22-2015, 11:22 AM
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Dondilion Dondilion is offline
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Israel has created enough facts on the ground to absorb the West Bank.

The Israelis are able to do this despite the grumblings of US administrations,
because of:
The powerful positions of American Jews and Jewish sympathizers in the economic, social and political life of the US.

Suicide bombings, 9/11, and televised beheadings have created a significant US antipathy to Muslims.

The resilience of Likud with its hard right policies has made it very difficult for Israel to be influenced by outsiders seeking a better deal for Palestinians.

I believe the only area Palestinians will be able to 'govern' is Gaza.
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  #13  
Old 12-22-2015, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
Both Palestine and Israel are man made creations
All states are man-made creations. Many of the problems with Israel stem from their insistence that their state, uniquely among all others, was ordained by God. This is, of course, unverifiable. Moreover, it's pure magical thinking and gives Israelis permission to act as if they have a divine right to act in any way they wish to.
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2015, 12:20 PM
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Pio1980 Pio1980 is offline
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We think the same here as a matter of foundation. Same result.

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  #15  
Old 12-22-2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
We think the same here as a matter of foundation. Same result.

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No, we don't, Steve. Radical revisionist Christians try to reinterpret our history in terms of a sacred compact, the Mormons also believe that of their "New Zion" and perhaps the Puritans had similar conceits but, on the whole, our founders believed that they were creating a nation on the rather secular principles of the Enlightenment.

Only Israelis and some religious Jews in other parts of the world insist that their "Promised Land" is a direct gift from God.
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Last edited by Boreas; 12-22-2015 at 01:21 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-22-2015, 01:42 PM
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The FFs had their reasons and rationale, our attitude toward our manifest destiny and exceptionalism came later and is with us now.

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  #17  
Old 12-22-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
our attitude toward our manifest destiny and exceptionalism came later and is with us now.
I think it's quite a stretch to attribute religious significance to Manifest Destiny and, in any event, it wasn't ever fully embraced by our leaders even early on.

American Exceptionalism is an equally high hurdle. The idea is that, because of our democratic institutions, our freedoms and our ideals, we are unique (exceptional) in the world. It wasn't intended to imply superiority or divine license. The former was a "gift" from the neo-cons and the latter came with Reaganism.
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  #18  
Old 12-22-2015, 02:24 PM
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Manifest destiny:
If we can take it, God meant for us to have it.

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  #19  
Old 12-22-2015, 02:38 PM
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Manifest destiny:
If we can take it, God meant for us to have it.

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That's not what Manifest Destiny was about. It was really only about our westward expansion and our "destiny" to "civilize" the continent, subjugate the Indians and displace the Mexicans. We couldn't really justify the rape and pillage we were engaded in on conventional religious grounds so we invented a new deity for the purpose , the Goddess of "American Progress", guiding us ever westward for the good of mankind.

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  #20  
Old 12-22-2015, 03:12 PM
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merrylander merrylander is offline
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Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
That's not what Manifest Destiny was about. It was really only about our westward expansion and our "destiny" to "civilize" the continent, subjugate the Indians and displace the Mexicans. We couldn't really justify the rape and pillage we were engaded in on conventional religious grounds so we invented a new deity for the purpose , the Goddess of "American Progress", guiding us ever westward for the good of mankind.

And in the process allowed that carpetbagger Richard King to steal the ranch from Florence's ancestor Jose Narciso Cavazos and most of our western states at the point of a gun. The Texas courts are still resolving land claims.

Meanwhile Stephen Austin brought ten cut throats down from up north to steal more land - oh yeah he called them the Texas Rangers.
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