You Call This A Middle Class?

[Tom Joad]

Originally Posted by mpholland

I am pretty sure if the private sector had the ability to just raise taxes for higher wages and pensions they would probably do so, but it doesn't. I know it is hard to watch huge corporations display the greed that they do, but the majority of small business that make up a huge part of our economy don't have the resources that many people think they do.

The small businesses aren't the ones that are fucking us.

They are the fuckees, along with the working class.

It's the big multinationals that have the rest of us bent over the table.

[4-2-7]

Originally Posted by barbara

427, I can't speak about all of the California cities going bankrupt, but I can address the situation in the city of Stockton.

It's true, city employees had great retirement packages. But, the city made other bad financial decisions that pushed them into bankruptcy.

They invested millions of dollars "revitalizing" downtown.<Union Jobs They built a sports arena,<Union Jobs developed the waterfront,<Union Jobs restored the old hotel <Union Jobs and built a movie theater complex with shopping area and restaurants.<Union Jobs This was all done in the hopes of making downtown a good place to come for work and entertainment and create a bustling city.< Spending money they did not have to spend, liberal economics.

Too bad the recession hit. Too bad no one wants to come downtown Stockton because of the crime no matter how revitalized it is.

The point is.... The financial troubles in Stockton were the result of many bad decisions. The blame can't be placed entirely on employee pensions.

I understand that but the facts remain the same.

[4-2-7]

Originally Posted by finnbow

While this is true, one needs to look at the genesis of the problem. I believed I explained it in my post #43. When the time comes to pay the piper, municipalities are stuck. They can't raise taxes as the tax base is gone and they can't float bonds (or service existing debt) due to their dire economic situation. Something's gotta give and the overly generous pensions are one of the few sources of savings to rebalance things.

We agree again, it's the first thing to get hit.

[barbara]

Originally Posted by 4-2-7

I understand that but the facts remain the same.

427, I just gave you the facts.

[mpholland]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

The small businesses aren't the ones that are fucking us.

They are the fuckees, along with the working class.

It's the big multinationals that have the rest of us bent over the table.

That is a point I was trying to get across, but many people seem to be under the impression that just because you own a business you are rich, and don't seem to understand that if these huge corporations are the exception and not the rule. The economy (and indirectly, the people) would do much better if there were thousands of smaller independent businesses rather than a few corporations owning them all.

[4-2-7]

Originally Posted by mpholland

I think the managerial incompetence needs to be righted. I don't have any problem with government workers earning a decent wage and pension, but they don't need to average half again to almost double of the people paying them. There are many PERS pensions that, after 20 years, pay almost as much as what the person was making working, sometimes more if there was a promotion or a lot of overtime right before retirement. I don't think that people necessarily have to lose what they were already promised, I just feel that going forward they don't need to be promised more than what can actually be delivered. I am pretty sure if the private sector had the ability to just raise taxes for higher wages and pensions they would probably do so, but it doesn't. I know it is hard to watch huge corporations display the greed that they do, but the majority of small business that make up a huge part of our economy don't have the resources that many people think they do.

Excellent post..

[4-2-7]

Originally Posted by barbara

427, I just gave you the facts.

I know there is tons of mismanagement and bad bookkeeping in government.

If only they spent the money like it was theirs and with the thought of limits.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by 4-2-7

I know there is tons of mismanagement and bad bookkeeping in government.

If only they spent the money like it was theirs and with the thought of limits.

Yeh. Like Enron, WorldCom, Lehman Bros., AIG, Bernie Madoff ..........

[barbara]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Yeh. Like Enron, WorldCom, Lehman Bros., AIG, Bernie Madoff ..........

Good point.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by mpholland

That is a point I was trying to get across, but many people seem to be under the impression that just because you own a business you are rich, and don't seem to understand that if these huge corporations are the exception and not the rule. The economy (and indirectly, the people) would do much better if there were thousands of smaller independent businesses rather than a few corporations owning them all.

True, but then again many small business owners are quick to defend the behavior of large corporations. As Reagan said, "A big businessman is what a small businessman would be if the government would get off his back."

It's hard to convince a person to see the hazards inherent in "big business", when "big business" is what they aspire to be.

Dave