Pope John Paul's Beatification ....

[JonL]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Jon, thanks for calling me smart, even if I'm not THAT smart.

Have you ever read the New Testament? You'd find that it is people who did those things, not God.

Pete

PS the holocaust wasn't religious.

God didn't do anything, ever, IMO. God, and by extension, religion, is an invention of man. Then that invention is used to create artificial distinctions between "us" and "them," leading to the inevitable "conclusion" that "they" are inferior or to be feared, and in the worst cases, must be exterminated.

Yes, it's all been at the hands of man, but man likes to hide behind his mythology.

The holocaust may not have been purely religious in its motivation, but religion was the biggest of several reasons to select entire groups of people for extermination.

[JonL]

Originally Posted by whell

Let's see. Your argument/linkage/logic is that:

- religion leads to violence, therefore religion is bad.
- Christianity lead to the Crusades, the Crusades killed people, so Christianity is bad
- The bible depicts violent acts and wars. The bible is a religious document. Religion is bad.
- Islam lead to to Jihad. Jihad kills people. Therefore Islam is bad.

So, maybe we should get busy applying that same logic, if it works well for you. How 'bout this.

- JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was an Atheist. Atheism in bad.

- The Soviet Union was an athestic state. The Soviets slaughtered millions of their own people. Atheism kills.

- Hitler was conflicted in his religious beliefs throughout most of his life, ultimately choosing, according to some, to place Germany ahead of any notion of a "god". Hitler was a Nazi. Those who are conflicted about their religion or reject "god" are Nazi's.

If we're gonna be consistent, then by God (oops) let's be consistent.

I'm not going to chase you down the rat hole of ridiculous logic.

IMO, religion has been and still is used to consolidate power, manipulate people, create artificial separation between peoples, incite and foment violence, and create unnecessary pain and suffering in this world. It's mythology and superstition, plain and simple, and it's a terrible shame that mythology and superstition continues to be such a powerful force in the world today.

[JonL]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

JonL:

The Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust and even arguably Jihadism would not have gotten off the ground without STATE complicity and funding. So I can't blame religion solely for these things.

Precisely correct. Ever since the inception of religion it has been used by the powerful to justify their actions. See the connection? Who's driving the bus?

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Why are we not smart enough to know the limits of our own intelligience? Or the limits of our moral strengths? The secular humanists have absolutely no humility. That's disturbing. These are the ultimate know-it-alls. They want you to believe that all the matter and energy in the universe (and now we have to include dark matter and anti-matter) could fit on the head of a pin at the time of the Big Bang.. I don't care what kind of Physicist you are -- that requires much MORE faith than Moses parting the Red Sea.

If you truly meant to claim yourself "a humble animal" then you have faith in something.

I do not believe that anyone truly claims to KNOW what happened at the time of the Big Bang. There may be people who strongly believe various theories. Your comment about the seeming impossibility of all matter existing within the size of a pinhead exactly supports my point. I don't know whether that's what happened or not. It is unfathomable to my limited human mind that all matter in the universe could be so condensed. Just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't the truth (it might be or not, I don't know), nor does it mean I have to invent some mythology so I don't have to admit that certain things are beyond the limits of my understanding.

Why do you say I have "faith" in something if I consider myself a humble animal? There are things that I understand, and there are things that other people understand that I do not, and there are things that no one understands. I'm completely comfortable with that.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by JonL

I'm not going to chase you down the rat hole of ridiculous logic.

.

lol, that's our whell

[JonL]

Originally Posted by whell

Let's see. Your argument/linkage/logic is that:

- religion leads to violence, therefore religion is bad.

Let's see...

Whell used the word "bad." Bad is BAD. Therefore whell is bad.

QED.

[finnbow]

I think Karl Marx had this one right.

Religion is the opiate of the people.

[d-ray657]

There are those who take the "invisible hand" of capitalism as an article of faith; who have absolute faith that Barack Obama was not born in the United States; who believe that other races are inferior to their own; who believe that money is the measure of a man's worth. I think energy would be better spent on shattering the faith in those things, than in shattering the faith in One who, even from a secular point of view, had some pretty profound things to say about the way we should treat each other.

His non-violent message that we should turn the other cheek has turned out pretty well in Tunisia and Egypt (not to mention India). It didn't work in Libya, and is facing stiff opposition in other parts of the middle east.

BTW I strongly support a wall of separation between church and state. I agree the freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. The whole scheme promotes toleration. Not sure where the kick comes from bashing the faith of others.

Regards,

D-Ray

[JonL]

I've been thinking about some of what I've written, and that it probably comes across very harshly. For that I apologize. I don't get a "kick" out of bashing the faith of others. I believe people should be free to believe whatever they wish. My posts should have been better directed towards what I believe and why, and not written in a way that would demean any individual. That said, I think it is probably impossible for me to express my reasons for my feelings about religion without offending believers to some degree, and there's not much I can do about that. What does really raise my hackles is when religious beliefs guide policies or actions that negatively affect people, and that IMO happens all too often all over the world.

I also think it odd that taking a strenuous anti-religion position is more taboo and more offensive to many than having a strong political disagreement or even expressing racism.

[d-ray657]

I just love to argue. On this board at least, I don't think criticism of religion is even close to taboo. There are people who will respond to such arguments in much the same manner as if the criticism had been of capitalism or of unions or Ronald Reagan. I think, again, at least on this board, there is near universal rejection of racist comments. StereoRob's suggestion of the President's lumpy racing mount drew the ridicule it deserved.

I don't doubt that anyone's profession of atheism will draw negative comments, as will the practice of Islam or Buddhism. People are wary of belief systems other than their own. That is why religion, or lack thereof, shouldn't be the basis of political decisions. It is difficult to logically counter an argument that is not based on evidence.

I would, however, make one enormous exception to the exclusion of religious reasons for secular decisions - the Golden Rule. I suggest that any policy choice should at least give some consideration to that principle. (I could even argue that the action against Bin Laden fit within the Golden Rule. I'm pretty sure that if I had been responsible for the death of thousands and thousands of innocents, I would be expecting a bullet to the head.)

Regards,

D-Ray

[JonL]

I try very hard to live by the golden rule in everything I do and I - obviously - do not believe in God or religion. Doing the right thing has nothing to do with superstition or mythology. It has everything to do with humanity.