Ukraine Heats Up

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I'm virtually speechless! What we end up with here is US troops (plus UK and Polish contingents) on the ground in eastern Ukraine and Russian troops on the ground in western Ukraine. This will explode.

It also makes me, for the first time, seriously consider the possibility that the C.I.A. did Nemtsov in. Having a high profile assassination of an opponent of Putin at this time serves the interests of those looking for a pretext for ramping up the tensions between Russia and the West.

There's also the folly of training soldiers who simply don't want to fight. That didn't exactly work out in Iraq.

John

Did the CIA also murder the ~300 journalists who have murdered in Russia since 1993 and the various political adversaries who have been on the receiving end of a bullet or a dose of poison since Putin came on board?

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...-Soviet-Russia

I think there's a much greater chance that the continuous bombardment of Russia by state-controlled media/propaganda riled up some violent nationalists (if Putin himself didn't help orchestrate it).

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Did the CIA also murder the ~300 journalists who have murdered in Russia since 1993 and the various political adversaries who have been on the receiving end of a bullet or a dose of poison since Putin came on board?

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...-Soviet-Russia

I think there's a much greater chance that the continuous bombardment of Russia by state-controlled media/propaganda riled up some violent nationalists (if Putin himself didn't help orchestrate it).

For the sake of argument, let's just say that everything you say and imply above is true. How does that change any of what I said in the post you were responding to? Placing US, UK and Polish troops on the ground in Ukraine is a foolishly provocative act that is also doomed to fail to achieve its stated purchase.

Also, your clear intent is to imply that Putin and his immediate predecessors were responsible for all the murders you refer to. This isn't only misleading but demonstrably false. Many of those murders are attributable to the Bratva and to oligarchs facing exposure in the press.

Even if every single one of these murders could be laid at Putin's feet (and they can't), does it mean that Nemtsov's must also be? Or might it be a calculation that Putin would be blamed for a murder engineered by a foreign intelligence agency like the C.I.A.? Might this serve Western interests in that it would offer a pretext fore the increasingly aggressive behavior of the US and NATO?

John

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Boreas

For the sake of argument, let's just say that everything you say and imply above is true. How does that change any of what I said in the post you were responding to? Placing US, UK and Polish troops on the ground in Ukraine is a foolishly provocative act that is also doomed to fail to achieve its stated purchase...

The fact remains that Putin is a corrupt autocrat who will stop at nothing to retain his hold on power and access to his nation's riches. If it takes murdering political adversaries or troublesome journalists, he's all in. If it takes invading neighboring sovereign countries to stoke nationalist sentiment, while flooding the nation with supporting nationalist propaganda, why not? Meanwhile, they facilitated Iran's nuclear program and continue to support Syria's Assad.

I'm not exactly sure why such actions garner your admiration and support. I find them reprehensible.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The fact remains that Putin is a corrupt autocrat who will stop at nothing to retain his hold on power and access to his nation's riches. If it takes murdering political adversaries or troublesome journalists, he's all in. If it takes invading neighboring sovereign countries to stoke nationalist sentiment, while flooding the nation with supporting nationalist propaganda, why not? Meanwhile, they facilitated Iran's nuclear program and continue to support Syria's Assad.

I'm not exactly sure why such actions garner your admiration and support. I find them reprehensible.

Now, that's just silly, Pat.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The fact remains that Putin is a corrupt autocrat who will stop at nothing to retain his hold on power and access to his nation's riches. If it takes murdering political adversaries or troublesome journalists, he's all in. If it takes invading neighboring sovereign countries to stoke nationalist sentiment, while flooding the nation with supporting nationalist propaganda, why not? Meanwhile, they facilitated Iran's nuclear program and continue to support Syria's Assad.

I'm not exactly sure why such actions garner your admiration and support. I find them reprehensible.

I tend to view Putin/Russian politics within context. And I view it dispassionately.

The USSR disintegrates. There is a vicious struggle by different factions
to capture important state assets. A faction with close ties to westerners
emerge on top...after all the westerners were the ones who were advising on the scam privatization.

One of the westernized Oligarch Berezovsky had huge influence with Yeltsin. But Yeltsin was leaving and Berezovsky wanted influence continuance
so he picked a low level former KGB guy whom he thought would be a puppet.

Putin inherited an Oligarch war. He tried to bring some order. Oligarchs must
pay tax and not unduly get involve in politics where they buy can out the system.
That did not go down well with some and they fled to London, Paris, Israel and US. Some even bought the British government.

In the meantime this was happening the west was pushing NATO on every
ex satellite country.

The Oligarch war is still on. One faction especially - the George Soros faction - has not given up. They are many players wearing many flags in the Russian streets.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

...
In the meantime this was happening the west was pushing NATO on every
ex satellite country...

Given the USSR and Russia's past behavior vis-a-vis its neighbors and satellite states, not to mention better economic conditions in western Europe, can you blame former Warsaw Pact countries for wanting some sort of guarantee against possible future aggression by the Russian bear? Putin's behavior is proving them right.

Having traveled to the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary and East Berlin during the Cold War and having traveled to the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and eastern Germany since, I too would want nothing to do with Russia (other than trade) if I was a citizen of a former Soviet client state. Relatively speaking, Russia is damned close to a failed state compared to the modern-day Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary or the Baltic States.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Putin's behavior is proving them right.

By not being a bystander.

The British Lords were sure that he would.

[Dondilion]

Germany is concerned about Breedlove's (NATO top commander) bellicosity.
And Obama is becoming isolated by Dem and Repub hawks.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...ents-box-pager