10% U.S. Flat Tax Accross the Board!

[Independent]

Originally Posted by wintermuted

I guess simple solutions satisfy simple minds.

There's no need for that, if you can't argue a point without personal attacts, your credibility on this board, IMHO, will be severely compromised.

If I've learned anything over my lifetime, there is absolutely nothing wrong with simplifying things, or even oversimplifying things.

Peace!





Indy

[wintermuted]

Originally Posted by Independent

If I've learned anything over my lifetime, there is absolutely nothing wrong with simplifying things, or even oversimplifying things.

I respectfully disagree, and I believe at that, we've reached a point where we philosophically differ and no amount of wrangling is going to make a difference to either of us.

I was surprised to see you go back and raise the "simplicity" flag again after my arguments. It suggested to me that you either didn't have a rebuttal, found the concerns I brought up irrelevant, or didn't understand my point.

[Brett A]

Originally Posted by Independent

Oh, and guess what, $24,000 a year is NOT poverty.

Indy

Depends on where you live. In some regions of this country, that's rent---nothing else. In some areas $24k =living in your $1,200 car.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by noonereal

I totally agree. It is ashame that there is so much money in keeping all the loopholes in the tax code. I wonder how many the current convoluted tax code causes employment for? Anyone know?

Sure, tax accountants! Never could figure out the damned 1040, never mind all the Supplements.

[Stereoholic]

Anybody remember when there was a 91 percent tax bracket? I kid you not. Google it.

[kretinus]

Originally Posted by wintermuted

I guess simple solutions satisfy simple minds.

More often than not the simplest solution turns out to be the best one. Far too often people who think they're enlightened don't realize that you can simply pick up a hammer and drive a nail without trying to find all the ways to drive a nail.

Since the single biggest problem with our tax system is it's complexity and miriad web of loopholes etc, a flat tax is the single most effective way of eliminating it and making sure we all pay the same rate regardless of income.

The only people who wouldn't think it an ideal solution are those who have a very abstract and illogical idea of fairness.

[kretinus]

Originally Posted by Brett A

Depends on where you live. In some regions of this country, that's rent---nothing else. In some areas $24k =living in your $1,200 car.

Then move, $24K a year in a lot of places would be a very comfortable living.

[wintermuted]

Originally Posted by kretinus

More often than not the simplest solution turns out to be the best one. Far too often people who think they're enlightened don't realize that you can simply pick up a hammer and drive a nail without trying to find all the ways to drive a nail.

Since the single biggest problem with our tax system is it's complexity and miriad web of loopholes etc, a flat tax is the single most effective way of eliminating it and making sure we all pay the same rate regardless of income.

The only people who wouldn't think it an ideal solution are those who have a very abstract and illogical idea of fairness.

I can see the comfort in trying to reduce everything to a minimum amount of complexity. It certainly makes decisions easier and lets you sleep easier at night. It may even work well as a personal strategy. I'd argue, however, that it creates a tunnel vision situation, oblivious to nuance and unintended consequence.

I think simple solutions are more often than not best suited to simple problems. The real world can sometimes be a complicated place that calls for looking at multiple versions of the truth and weighing shades of gray. I'd call keeping the blinders on as a matter of public policy dangerously misguided.

[Negotiableterms]

Uh oh... I'm a tax lawyer and CPA, so my view is probably a little off-center. That said, here goes:

A flat tax won't work for several reasons. The tax system performs three huge functions:

1. Raises revenue for the government.
2. Tool for economic policy.
3. Redistributes wealth.

Believe it or not, the #2 reason is the crucial one. Take the complex tax system away, and the government can't encourage things like building apartments and drilling for oil. Money would flow only to where the yield is highest, and that would leave a lot of folk without homes, and gas would be really, really expensive. In a flat tax, the rich are not encouraged to invest for the long term. Instead, day-trading pays as well as a 20-year commitment. There's no point in starting a business and re-investing for it to grow, so everyone just takes profits in cash where they can. Every time a business sells something at a gain in order to buy a bigger one, like a new plant or a big machine, the government takes its flat cut, so the business has to wait a lot longer before it can afford to grow. The government can't encourage companies to train new employees, or to provide pensions for older ones, or medical expenses. People have to pay the tax before they can afford medical expenses, making the cost of care prohibitive for all but the rich. These are just a few examples.

The flat tax won't work, and it's a long way from fair, for the reasons already stated. It sounds great until you apply the detail facts... then it really and truly sucks.

[kretinus]

Originally Posted by wintermuted

I can see the comfort in trying to reduce everything to a minimum amount of complexity. It certainly makes decisions easier and lets you sleep easier at night. It may even work well as a personal strategy. I'd argue, however, that it creates a tunnel vision situation, oblivious to nuance and unintended consequence.

Seeking the simplest solution is by no means a sign of intellectual weakness or an attempt to avoid reality, nor is it a matter of tunnel vision so your condescending attitude doesn't lend credibility to your case friend.

Making things more complicated than they need to be is what leads to unintended consequences. One look at the bloated, ineffective pig our government has become is proof of that, it's a product of making things too complicated.

Originally Posted by wintermuted

I think simple solutions are more often than not best suited to simple problems. The real world can sometimes be a complicated place that calls for looking at multiple versions of the truth and weighing shades of gray. I'd call keeping the blinders on as a matter of public policy dangerously misguided.

I'm more concerned about the problems caused by people who get lost in shades of grey fog. The real world is not as complicated as you want it to be, it's really fairly simple if you choose to see reality. There's no such thing as multiple truths, a thing is either right or wrong, what you describe is simply a means to deny the truth and justify the agenda of the day.