Pope John Paul's Beatification ....

[BlueStreak]

Yeah, that's what it is.

You speak of concentration camps. Tell me; How many Jewish folk went in thinking they would survive because of their faith....and how did that work out for them?

Look. I don't care what you believe. Your spiritual choices are yours to have, the first amendment guarantees each and every one of us that right. And I support that right. The constitution also bars us from requiring public servants to pass a "religious test".

Why do you suppose that is?

Maybe the founders were pragmatic men who knew religion could be used as a tool to control minds? Maybe they understood the evil that could sprout from an unholy alliance of church and state? Maybe they had witnessed, with their own eyes what happens when a powerful government demands you join their church?

The governments link to religion should begin and end with the enforcement of the First Amendment. When serving in government, one should check his/her religious beliefs at the door.

BTW, good luck with getting religious folk to accept gays. Their Bible has demonized homosexuality as "........an abomination in the eyes of the Lord." And you will burn in hell for non-compliance.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Here's an interesting read for your perusal;

http://www.famguardian.org/Subjects/...n/jeff1650.htm

In my opinion when people attempt to declare a nation as being a "(Insert name of religion here.) Nation" it implies an exclusivity that flies directly in the face of the 1st Amendment and the spirit of religious freedom. It only makes sense that being free to pursue ones religious beliefs and desires would also include being free of the undue influence of the religious beliefs of others. Anything less is not freedom, but rather the very essence of tyranny.

So, believe whatever you like. Just keep it out of my face, please.

Dave

[flacaltenn]

You speak of concentration camps. Tell me; How many Jewish folk went in thinking they would survive because of their faith....and how did that work out for them?

Well BlueStreak -- it may have kept many alive according to anecdotal evidence. But not because their God weakened the power of the German state or that they expected "angels of God to smite" dem Nazis - Indiana Jones style. What it definately DID DO, is inspire them to NOT be afraid of guns and self-defense and give them the courage to form a nation based on the motto "Never Again". Didn't alter their faith because God didn't rescue them, but it sure changed their view of relying SOLELY on the state they lived in. Moreover, tolerating the inconceivable is a lot easier if your faith tells you that your captors are wrong... Otherwise it's just a legal dust-up.

Maybe the founders were pragmatic men who knew religion could be used as a tool to control minds? Maybe they understood the evil that could sprout from an unholy alliance of church and state? Maybe they had witnessed, with their own eyes what happens when a powerful government demands you join their church?

The governments link to religion should begin and end with the enforcement of the First Amendment. When serving in government, one should check his/her religious beliefs at the door.

Don't know WHY you seem to be so threatened by this bogey-man of the "religious right". Can't fathom what that threat really is outside of this phoney pony about this being formed as a "Christian Nation". Nowhere in the advanced WORLD of the late 1700s, was there a nation based on such a secular view of govt. Did Santa Claus sit somewhere on your public property? Does having a statue of Moses and Ten Commandments on your public building put your panties in a wad? Being raised as Jewish kid, I loved all that Christmas hoopla. They didn't suck my Jewish soul out of me when I sang Christmas carols at the PUBLIC school. In fact, getting irate about stuff like kind makes hypocrites of the 1st degree out of the MultiCultural left.

What exactly IS this humungeous threat from the "religious right" that impacts your life?

And how does that compare to the threat of a political opposition to the "godly" party that wants to change your diet, your light bulbs, and control your body and mind in every OTHER way than a belief in God?

Can't completely check religious beliefs at the door. Because then you'd be called a liar when the debate anchor asks you about Biblical beliefs. Just look at the number of questions asked last week!!! For crying out loud, the PRESS wants to make it a test for office.

How would you handle that BlueStreak????? "situational ethics time"

[flacaltenn]

P.S.

I'm not asking the right to "accept" gays. This is diplomacy here. Remember you don't have to be non-judgemental to be tolerant. And you don't have to condone the behaviour that you're acknowledging is a free choice.. What I am doing is asking them to grant human rights and dignity to the person by equalizing the laws. At the same time, I'm asking the GLBT community to honor the traditional meaning of "word" marraige and choose some UNIQUELY GLBT phrase. Be creative.. like gays usually are.. OMG that was satire..

Doesn't have to be 2 trains coming at each other like the abortion issue. That's the media's fault.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Well BlueStreak -- it may have kept many alive according to anecdotal evidence. But not because their God weakened the power of the German state or that they expected "angels of God to smite" dem Nazis - Indiana Jones style. What it definately DID DO, is inspire them to NOT be afraid of guns and self-defense and give them the courage to form a nation based on the motto "Never Again". Didn't alter their faith because God didn't rescue them, but it sure changed their view of relying SOLELY on the state they lived in. Moreover, tolerating the inconceivable is a lot easier if your faith tells you that your captors are wrong... Otherwise it's just a legal dust-up.



Don't know WHY you seem to be so threatened by this bogey-man of the "religious right". I fear Theocracy, the unquestioning followership it entails and the absolute power it demands. Can't fathom what that threat really is outside of this phoney pony about this being formed as a "Christian Nation". Phoney pony, is right. Why do you think the GOP feels the need to make this assertion, if not to make false assertions in the name of gaining power, and the control that comes with it? Nowhere in the advanced WORLD of the late 1700s, was there a nation based on such a secular view of govt. Precisely, and that's why the creation of a secular state was essential to the establishment of individual freedom. Most other nations were Monarchies, based on the belief that leaders are chosen by God, through bloodline. It was a nightmare.Did Santa Claus sit somewhere on your public property? Does having a statue of Moses and Ten Commandments on your public building put your panties in a wad? Yes. Because it doesn't belong there. I firmly believe in the "wall of separation". You?Being raised as Jewish kid, I loved all that Christmas hoopla. So did I, Still do. So decorate your house, put a wreath on your head and wrap youself with lights and go swimming for all I care.They didn't suck my Jewish soul out of me when I sang Christmas carols at the PUBLIC school. Glad to hear it didn;t destroy your faith, but it didn't belong in the public school. That was wrong.In fact, getting irate about stuff like kind makes hypocrites of the 1st degree out of the MultiCultural left. How so? The extremists who go after churches and private residences, yes, I would have to agree. But those who protest the presence of religious icons in government owned building are exactly correct.

What exactly IS this humungeous threat from the "religious right" that impacts your life? See my above statement.

And how does that compare to the threat of a political opposition to the "godly" party that wants to change your diet, your light bulbs, and control your body and mind in every OTHER way than a belief in God? Really? Light bulbs? I don't give a shit about light bulbs. If it saves some energy, I'm all for it. As a matter of fact my house is full of them already. Light bulbs are far less a threat to my liberty than theocratic dogma. My diet needs changed, I'm fat. Most Americans need to change their diets, We're a nation of unhealthy fat fucks in case you hadn't noticed.
We've tried "education", we've tried leaving it up to "personal responsibility"----None of that is working. The costs are killing us. Something will eventually have to be done whether a bunch of fat ass cry baby teabaggers want to hear it, or not. Me included.

Can't completely check religious beliefs at the door. Because then you'd be called a liar when the debate anchor asks you about Biblical beliefs. Just look at the number of questions asked last week!!! For crying out loud, the PRESS wants to make it a test for office.

How would you handle that BlueStreak????? "situational ethics time"

You avail them of what your personal spiritual beliefs are, but that you understand they have no place when you're at work.

I'm not stupid, I understand that many people do look at a candidates religious background when deciding who to vote for, and that there is nothing I can do about that. And frankly, wouldn't want to change it if I could. They can use whatever basis they want upon which to make their decisions. However, to me religion is irrelevant within that process. I would have no problem voting for an Atheist, a Jew, or whatever, so long as his ideas for a better society connect with mine. It just doesn't mean anything to me..................Until I see some freak screaming "Christian Nation"! To me this is a turn off, something to stand against every bit as I would stand against the creation of an American Islamic Caliphate. To my mind a Christian Theocracy is every bit as threatening as a Muslim Theocracy, or any other Theocracy for that matter.

Tell me; As a "Jewish kid", do you only vote for Jewish candidates? Would you vote for a Jewish candidate simply because he/she is Jewish and no other reason? I suspect your answer is no on both counts. You're more thoughtful than that. Am I right?

I have met too many of my fellow Christians who do this, (Ummmm, pardon the pun.).......religiously. They feel they have to.

Dave

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

Well BlueStreak -- it may have kept many alive according to anecdotal evidence. But not because their God weakened the power of the German state or that they expected "angels of God to smite" dem Nazis - Indiana Jones style. What it definately DID DO, is inspire them to NOT be afraid of guns and self-defense and give them the courage to form a nation based on the motto "Never Again". Didn't alter their faith because God didn't rescue them, but it sure changed their view of relying SOLELY on the state they lived in. Moreover, tolerating the inconceivable is a lot easier if your faith tells you that your captors are wrong... Otherwise it's just a legal dust-up.



Don't know WHY you seem to be so threatened by this bogey-man of the "religious right". Can't fathom what that threat really is outside of this phoney pony about this being formed as a "Christian Nation". Nowhere in the advanced WORLD of the late 1700s, was there a nation based on such a secular view of govt. Did Santa Claus sit somewhere on your public property? Does having a statue of Moses and Ten Commandments on your public building put your panties in a wad? Being raised as Jewish kid, I loved all that Christmas hoopla. They didn't suck my Jewish soul out of me when I sang Christmas carols at the PUBLIC school. In fact, getting irate about stuff like kind makes hypocrites of the 1st degree out of the MultiCultural left.

What exactly IS this humungeous threat from the "religious right" that impacts your life?

And how does that compare to the threat of a political opposition to the "godly" party that wants to change your diet, your light bulbs, and control your body and mind in every OTHER way than a belief in God?

Can't completely check religious beliefs at the door. Because then you'd be called a liar when the debate anchor asks you about Biblical beliefs. Just look at the number of questions asked last week!!! For crying out loud, the PRESS wants to make it a test for office.

How would you handle that BlueStreak????? "situational ethics time"

I can't tell whether this is a post about religious beliefs or about the size of the civil government. What ever religious points are made are so intertwined with libertarian talking points that I can't follow them. Perhaps I am just dim-witted.

Regards,

D-Ray

[JonL]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

BlueStreak:



To me, the belief that your dignity and liberties are secured by a higher power, is much more than a P.R. gimmick or a crutch, or an excuse to weave some gospel music into your movement.

I think the reason the left freaks out about "people of faith" is that they invoke a "higher power" than the state to justify their liberty and freedom. It's the same kind of disgust that must have been on King George's face when he first read that punky Declaration of Independence (with the GOD stuff in it).. "Those people are not LOYAL after all I (we)'ve done for them????" Or the reaction that Stokely Carmichael was looking for from the (presumably religious) Sheriff when he told him -- "I'm gonna tell GOD how you're treating me".

The people in a civil rights movement or a concentration camp NEVER have adequate public opinion on their side because of "man-made" legal conditions backed by the power of the state. So when you hope that "terrible wrongs" are just OBVIOUS -- that rarely happens..

Now all we have to do is to convince the "religious right" that dignity and liberty are indeed due to gay folk (in terms of basic legal equality, not neccessarily word play about marraige). Every other political/religious diff with the "religious right" is just a valid debate about the proper role of state power. (ie, abortion, Muslim intolerance, ect)

BTW, IMHO, Much of the Muslim intolerance in this country is due to state restrictions of freedom that APPEAR to be neccessary, but are totally mockable. I'm talking about Patriot Act provisions and the TSA. The fact that my 10 yr daughter gets a pat-down while Yasir just walks on thru with his prayer rug. I don't think SAMPLING of this type has any purpose whatsoever other than inflaming backlash.. Or that my company deposits MIGHT be held for a Fed Check to see if I'm a terrorist. People are antsy about that crap and it FUELS the resentment. I hoped FOR SURE, the Progressive revolution would fix some of that -- but it wasn't on the change list.

It's late, I've had a lot to drink, had an interesting date. So I'll keep it short. This post that I've quoted is simply a bunch of BS. "The left" "freaks out" only when so-called people of faith seek to impose their belief systems upon the entire country, in violation of the constitution. It has nothing to do with "higher powers," or anyone's beliefs in a supreme being as more powerful than the state. Get over it. Keep your god and religion out of everyone else's life, just like the constitution demands, and we'll all be happy. Believe whatever you want, but keep it between you, your god, and your house of worship. Please, just leave me out of it.

The left may "freak out" when the religious right seeks to impose their Christian fundamentalist values on our laws and our nation. How would the right feel if Muslims tried to impose their values through the enactments of laws? Oh, wait. They right is already constructing all kinds of strawmen about that with these ridiculous rants about how Sharia law is going to overtake the country.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

I can't tell whether this is a post about religious beliefs or about the size of the civil government. What ever religious points are made are so intertwined with libertarian talking points that I can't follow them. Perhaps I am just dim-witted.
Regards,

D-Ray

Ditto, counselor. I'm hoping it made sense to flacaltenn (Actually, I'm not. A mind is a terrible thing to lose.)

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by JonL

It's late, I've had a lot to drink, had an interesting date. So I'll keep it short. This post that I've quoted is simply a bunch of BS. "The left" "freaks out" only when so-called people of faith seek to impose their belief systems upon the entire country, in violation of the constitution. It has nothing to do with "higher powers," or anyone's beliefs in a supreme being as more powerful than the state. Get over it. Keep your god and religion out of everyone else's life, just like the constitution demands, and we'll all be happy. Believe whatever you want, but keep it between you, your god, and your house of worship. Please, just leave me out of it.

The left may "freak out" when the religious right seeks to impose their Christian fundamentalist values on our laws and our nation. How would the right feel if Muslims tried to impose their values through the enactments of laws? Oh, wait. They right is already constructing all kinds of strawmen about that with these ridiculous rants about how Sharia law is going to overtake the country.

+1.

Dave

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

+1.

Dave

+2. Very lucid, even with a buzz. Maybe flacaltenn should partake of a little Tennessee sipping whiskey and then post a retort. It might make sense then.