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02-20-2015, 12:50 PM
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Mutated Member
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The Fatherland
Posts: 3,693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
A distinction without a difference when it comes to the Third Reich.
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That, sir, is absolutely false. You should know better. Even between 1933 and 1945 there was also another "Germany" than "Nazi Germany". Your comment disappoints me.
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REDEN MIT AMERIKA (Chris)
Last edited by HarmanKardon; 02-20-2015 at 12:52 PM.
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02-20-2015, 01:25 PM
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Reformed Know-Nothing
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MoCo, MD
Posts: 25,894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarmanKardon
That, sir, is absolutely false. You should know better. Even between 1933 and 1945 there was also another "Germany" than "Nazi Germany". Your comment disappoints me.
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My earlier point was that modern-day Germany has done a very good job in coming to terms with the atrocities committed in its name during WWII (unlike Japan). Was it also incorrect to have said Japan in this context (as opposed to some convoluted construction like "the militant followers of Hideki Tojo")? Similarly, should any criticism of the American first use of the A-Bomb at Hiroshima be directed solely to members of the Army Air Corp or Roosevelt/Truman's Democratic Party?
As for there having been another Germany from 1933-1945, there was certainly political opposition in the early years. But, it faded quickly with the growth of the (militarizing) German economy and the ease of early battlefield victories. You would have been hard-pressed to find many skeptics among average Germans after his march into the (demilitarized) Rhineland in March 1936 or the overwhelming victory against France in May-June 1940. At the risk of offending you, I believe that a lot of modern-day Germans try to downplay the level of support Hitler had. It did indeed become overwhelming before it all came crashing down.
This tendency among nations to airbrush their pasts is not unique to Germany. Currently, there are a lot of Republicans who want to edit what is taught in American History in high school to emphasize only the positive while ignoring the negative.
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As long as the roots are not severed, all will be well in the garden.
Last edited by finnbow; 02-20-2015 at 01:40 PM.
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02-20-2015, 01:38 PM
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Resident octogenarian
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 20,860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarmanKardon
One of the most difficult questions still is the definition of the German citizen then. A lot of them were Nazis, no question about that. But a lot of Germans did just as much as was necessary in order to survive. My Grandfather and his brother, my Granduncle were in Stalingrad. My Grandfather was a physician and his brother a reverend. Grandpa "repaired" the warriors as far as he could and Granduncle buried the soldiers who died under Grandpas hands. Nazis?
Two absolutely lovely people, Grandpa worked as a doctor until 1978 and died aged 95. Granduncle became mentally sick soon after the end of the war as a result of what he exerienced in Stalingrad and died 1976 in a state of mental derangement.
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My next door neighbours back in Quebec were from Germany, he was conscripted into the army but emigrated as soon as they could, damn good neigbours and nice people.
I also had a good friend Ruthild (May she rest in piece) she was a hostess at a standards conference in Nurnburg and a fellow philatelist. She died in a car crash on the autobahn.
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02-20-2015, 01:51 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,057
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Watching "Leni Riefenstahl, the immoderation in me" on youtube.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
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02-20-2015, 02:06 PM
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Jigsawed
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow
My earlier point was that modern-day Germany has done a very good job in coming to terms with the atrocities committed in its name during WWII (unlike Japan). Was it also incorrect to have said Japan in this context (as opposed to some convoluted construction like "the militant followers of Hideki Tojo")? Similarly, should any criticism of the American first use of the A-Bomb at Hiroshima be directed solely to members of the Army Air Corp or Roosevelt/Truman's Democratic Party?
As for there having been another Germany from 1933-1945, there was certainly political opposition in the early years. But, it faded quickly with the growth of the (militarizing) German economy and the ease of early battlefield victories. You would have been hard-pressed to find many skeptics among average Germans after his march into the (demilitarized) Rhineland in March 1936 or the overwhelming victory against France in May-June 1940. At the risk of offending you, I believe that a lot of modern-day Germans try to downplay the level of support Hitler had. It did indeed become overwhelming before it all came crashing down.
This tendency among nations to airbrush their pasts is not unique to Germany. Currently, there are a lot of Republicans who want to edit what is taught in American History in high school to emphasize only the positive while ignoring the negative.
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And people tend to conform, once they realize the futility of opposition. The Nazis had efficiently systematically terrorized Germany.
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02-20-2015, 02:26 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondilion
And people tend to conform, once they realize the futility of opposition. The Nazis had efficiently systematically terrorized Germany.
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Yes, that was the intention all along. Claus Von Staffenburg knew full well what he was up against, and the probable consequences. If only----.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
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02-20-2015, 02:36 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego via Vermilion Ohio and Points Between
Posts: 11,536
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Bluebook essay contest:
Compare and contrast the reaction of Egypt to Morisi's effort to become a dictator in 2012 with that of Germany in the 1930s after the passage of various Enabling Acts.
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Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
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02-20-2015, 03:01 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 20,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio1980
Yes, that was the intention all along. Claus Von Staffenburg knew full well what he was up against, and the probable consequences. If only----.
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It's thought that, though von Stauffenberg disapproved of things like Hitler's treatment of the Jews and the general loss of religious freedom under Hitler, he was totally on board with the war aims of the Third Reich. He had been urged since the beginning of the war to join the German resistance movement but had... um... resisted. It really wasn't until it became obvious to him that Germany couldn't win the war that von Stauffenberg signed on.
In his autobiography, Hans Bernd Gisevius, one of the few survivors of the resistance, had this to say about von Stauffenberg:
"Stauffenberg wanted to retain all the totalitarian, militaristic and soci@listic elements of National Soci@lism (p. 504). What he had in mind was the salvation of Germany by military men who could break with corruption and maladministration, who would provide an orderly military government and would inspire the people to make one last great effort. Reduced to a formula, he wanted the nation to remain soldierly and become soci@listic (p. 503).
"Stauffenberg was motivated by the impulsive passions of the disillusioned military man whose eyes had been opened by the defeat of German arms (p. 510). Stauffenberg had shifted to the rebel side only after Stalingrad (p. 512). The difference between Stauffenberg, Helldorf and Schulenburg — all of them counts — was that Helldorf had come to the Nazi Movement as a primitive, I might almost say an unpolitical revolutionary. The other two had been attracted primarily by a political ideology. Therefore, it was possible for Helldorf to throw everything overboard at once: Hitler, the Party, the entire system. Stauffenberg, Schulenberg and their clique wanted to drop no more ballast than was absolutely necessary; then they would paint the ship of state a military gray and set it afloat again (p. 513–514)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_v...war_misgivings
John
Last edited by Boreas; 02-20-2015 at 03:57 PM.
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02-20-2015, 03:21 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,057
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Thnx John.
It's my impression that he came to understand that Germany was going down because of the regimes incompetence at the top and AH's insistence that if he goes down the Reich and Germany go down with him as per his delusion of being the living embodiment of the core spirit of the State itself.
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I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
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02-20-2015, 03:34 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: NE Bamastan
Posts: 11,057
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The Leni Riefenstahl interview film I'm watching is excellent, highly recommended if any interest.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
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I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
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